1 hour classes vs. more than that

[ATC]

Are the two really the same? I say no. Please explain why they are or not to you.

Here is my take. They are really two different animals with different intentions.

I have seen both hour classes and longer. My observation is that 1 hour classes are more focused and based on teaching and learning. Classes that go longer tend to be unstructured and just have members doing mostly what they want. I rarely see these type of session as teach and learn session in the classic sense.

However with that said I do see a different mindset with the two also. Classes that last an hour are just that classes with the emphasis on teaching. Session that last more than that tend to be what I would call workout session and not classes.

Also if your classes are longer than an hour you may be doing a bit of both as well. Learning the first hour and then applying what you have learned the second half. This would be like a class then lab mindset. In essence your are doing two different things.

Please don't take what I stated as absolutes as I am sure there are structured classes that last longer than 1 hour but I would guess not many. Even academic classes rarely go over an hour, although you may have a lab after instructions and then you do things on your own with being able to call or get an instructor for help if needed. But the two are considered separate. One is class and the other is lab.

I think that people that go more than an hour are doing class/lab and still other are doing workout sessions only. People that are doing and hour or less are doing pure class and expected to lab on their own. They may get some lab time during class time but not much.

Just my take.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

A lot of it comes down to what martial arts are to the individual. As I said in another thread, I run a business, have two young children, a wife and lots of other hobbies. I started tkd to get fit and healthy and flexible and to generally feel good physically. Its not my proffession, I dont compete and Im not conducting seminars etc, so for me personally a one hour session 2-3 times a week is heaps to achieve my goals. On the other hand, if I was single, no kids, 9-5 job, nothing else to do with my time and wanted to one day make it to the olympics for tkd then I would want to train significantly longer. I dont think longer or shorter classes are better or worse, it just comes down to the individual and what they want out of their martial arts training. I do agree with your last point ATC, the club where I train we are expected to put some hours in at home, the class generally teaches material and breaks it down and shows the best ways to train it, we then go away practice and come back and do it all over again. I have been to one 4 hour lesson where we did got a lot of lab time during the class, thus it went for 4 hours.

 

[Steven Craig]

My observation is that 1 hour classes are more focused and based on teaching and learning. Classes that go longer tend to be unstructured and just have members doing mostly what they want. I rarely see these type of session as teach and learn session in the classic sense.


Just my take.

So are all extended classes less structured or do some give solid focused learning that you get in the one hour?
I guess that is partly the question, how are they run? I have found with the one hour classes, they seem very focused, coming from a teaching back ground I would call them "chalk and talk" where by instruction is given and then practiced before going on to the next point. Are the two to three hour classes more open ended?

 

[StudentCarl]

Speaking as a professional educator, ATC's observations match with the realistic limits of our focus and energy. Best learning happens when both focus and energy are pretty fresh. As those decline, so does quality of practice and retention.

There's also some truth to the idea that you retain most how you practice it, suggesting that a smaller number of reps with correct technique is better than many reps where the quality degrades over time due to fatigue or decreased focus. Instruction in new material and conditioning are two different activities, though it's different if your focus is on correct execution or thinking when fatigued. I suggest that is not an everyday focus.

Carl

 

[dancingalone]

ATC's observation has merit. I run 2 hour classes and we usually get a 30 min block in that time to work on individual material while I walk around for corrections and questions.

That said, occasionally we go the full 2 hours as a full class also. Typically then I will intersperse the instruction with group exercises meant to burn out the body, so the need to concentrate all the time is relieved.

 

[Tez3]

Why does it have to be one hour versus more? Is it a competition to see who has the best class?
We do two hours or more because we want to and we enjoy two hours. Our training doesn't involve 'group' training as such, we have mat work, stand up, self defence etc, the time flies by as we all work hard. the inference that because we do two or more hours our classes must lack focus or ends in a free for all couldn't be more wrong.

 

[dancingalone]

I don't read ATC's post that way, Tez. He's merely stating that usually the longer classes have designated time for individually-centered work ("lab"). Mat time, self-defense practice, etc as you mention could all fall into that. The point is that not everyone is following exactly what the teacher at the front of the class is teaching like they would during "class time".

 

[jks9199]

In a typical two hour class, we'll spend about 30 to 40 minutes on warm ups including going over the basic drills. Then I'll shift into the lesson for the class. We'll work it in various ways, whether that's line drills, partner work, or sparring. If we're working on forms, people may work more individually or in small groups of people working on the same form. (We don't split classes up by skill level.)

 

[ATC]

Why does it have to be one hour versus more? Is it a competition to see who has the best class?
We do two hours or more because we want to and we enjoy two hours. Our training doesn't involve 'group' training as such, we have mat work, stand up, self defence etc, the time flies by as we all work hard. the inference that because we do two or more hours our classes must lack focus or ends in a free for all couldn't be more wrong.

Sorry Tez3, maybe I should have use the term compared to in place of vs. in the title.

Also it does sound like you spend much of the time labbing. Yes that is focused as each individual will have focus while doing so but the class time itself is not a focused class per se' with the main intent on new or reviewed material.

Many places that do hour long classes will at times use that time to do one or the other at times. Many times they may have you lab last weeks class teachings for the entire time. Thus one hour of work vs. one hour instruction or teaching.

Like someone above said there is no one is better than the other just different approaches to the same end.

 

[Tez3]

Sorry Tez3, maybe I should have use the term compared to in place of vs. in the title.

Also it does sound like you spend much of the time labbing. Yes that is focused as each individual will have focus while doing so but the class time itself is not a focused class per se' with the main intent on new or reviewed material.

Many places that do hour long classes will at times use that time to do one or the other at times. Many times they may have you lab last weeks class teachings for the entire time. Thus one hour of work vs. one hour instruction or teaching.

Like someone above said there is no one is better than the other just different approaches to the same end.

What on earth is labbing?

You have to bear in mind our classes are MMA so we may train in a way that is very different from TMA though I don't find it so. It's less of learning a technique to do it in a 'correct' way more of learning it and then working to make it fit you or indeed finding out that you can't use it. We don't have periods of instruction as such,for example we will be shown some escapes from arm bars to try, then we try them out, see how they work for us, the instructor will help, we swap around on the mat and continue drilling those moves. We get used to using them against different sizes of body and weights. After that we may do pad work, depending on the background of the student they'll do it boxing, karate or MT style, there's no exact way they have to punch or kick, just the most efficient for them. We may spar either kick boxing or ground work or both together. Often we have SD which is the effective stuff as my instructor is a close protection officer as well as head doormen in one of our tougher cities.
We do a lot of sharing techniques, we have people from boxing, karate, TKD and BJJ so we have a wide 'database' of knowledge we pool. We also have visiting fighters as well as our own so again more knowledge comes in with them, often we have soldiers up on courses who will come into the club just a couple of times but again have something we can learn and hopefully they benfit by training with others. We do have TMA people who visit too and are always made welcome.

 

[ATC]

What on earth is labbing?

You have to bear in mind our classes are MMA so we may train in a way that is very different from TMA though I don't find it so. It's less of learning a technique to do it in a 'correct' way more of learning it and then working to make it fit you or indeed finding out that you can't use it. We don't have periods of instruction as such,for example we will be shown some escapes from arm bars to try, then we try them out, see how they work for us, the instructor will help, we swap around on the mat and continue drilling those moves. We get used to using them against different sizes of body and weights. After that we may do pad work, depending on the background of the student they'll do it boxing, karate or MT style, there's no exact way they have to punch or kick, just the most efficient for them. We may spar either kick boxing or ground work or both together. Often we have SD which is the effective stuff as my instructor is a close protection officer as well as head doormen in one of our tougher cities.
We do a lot of sharing techniques, we have people from boxing, karate, TKD and BJJ so we have a wide 'database' of knowledge we pool. We also have visiting fighters as well as our own so again more knowledge comes in with them, often we have soldiers up on courses who will come into the club just a couple of times but again have something we can learn and hopefully they benfit by training with others. We do have TMA people who visit too and are always made welcome.

Thanks Tez you have confirmed what I am saying. Your session or time is more geared towards labbing (working techniques as in experimenting vs. different styles and such back and forth. Much like in a lab environment where you figure out how to make it work). Because you gym is more mixed vs. a single style this approach may be one that is needed with the diversities you have in your setting.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Our classes are 2 hours and they are very structured the whole time. Just my 2 cents.

 

[Tez3]

Thanks Tez you have confirmed what I am saying. Your session or time is more geared towards labbing (working techniques as in experimenting vs. different styles and such back and forth. Much like in a lab environment where you figure out how to make it work). Because you gym is more mixed vs. a single style this approach may be one that is needed with the diversities you have in your setting.

We aren't a gym though, we are a club which may sound like I'm being pendantic but to us there's a big difference. 'Labbing' is not what we would call it, you make it sound as if we aren't disciplined or structured when we are in fact both. We know how things work, what we have to do have to is make it work for us. It's not an experiment, it's training. Labbing sounds vey sloppy and we aren't that.
I've always trained for at least two hours whether it was TSD or Wado and the classes have always been very structured, they've never lost focus because they go over the hour.

 

[ralphmcpherson]

What on earth is labbing?

You have to bear in mind our classes are MMA so we may train in a way that is very different from TMA though I don't find it so. It's less of learning a technique to do it in a 'correct' way more of learning it and then working to make it fit you or indeed finding out that you can't use it. We don't have periods of instruction as such,for example we will be shown some escapes from arm bars to try, then we try them out, see how they work for us, the instructor will help, we swap around on the mat and continue drilling those moves. We get used to using them against different sizes of body and weights. After that we may do pad work, depending on the background of the student they'll do it boxing, karate or MT style, there's no exact way they have to punch or kick, just the most efficient for them. We may spar either kick boxing or ground work or both together. Often we have SD which is the effective stuff as my instructor is a close protection officer as well as head doormen in one of our tougher cities.
We do a lot of sharing techniques, we have people from boxing, karate, TKD and BJJ so we have a wide 'database' of knowledge we pool. We also have visiting fighters as well as our own so again more knowledge comes in with them, often we have soldiers up on courses who will come into the club just a couple of times but again have something we can learn and hopefully they benfit by training with others. We do have TMA people who visit too and are always made welcome.

that may be one of the key differences to training in a mma as compared to a tma. You guys get to go away and 'tweak' a move to suit you. For example, you may get shown a sidekick and then you can go and see how it works for you and you are able to change it up a bit, whereas in tkd, for instance, there is a set way you do a sidekick, we do get taught some variations along the way but generally it is taught the tkd way. I know my instructor is more than happy for us to work a kick a little to suit us individually but he doesnt want to look around the room and see 40 or 50 people all doing a technique a different way because he is teaching the 'tkd' way to do it.With this being the case an mma guy would require more time to 'lab' a technique to change it up a bit to suit the individual rather than having a 'copybook' way that it must be done. Is this a fair comment?

 

[ATC]

We aren't a gym though, we are a club which may sound like I'm being pendantic but to us there's a big difference. 'Labbing' is not what we would call it, you make it sound as if we aren't disciplined or structured when we are in fact both. We know how things work, what we have to do have to is make it work for us. It's not an experiment, it's training. Labbing sounds vey sloppy and we aren't that.
I've always trained for at least two hours whether it was TSD or Wado and the classes have always been very structured, they've never lost focus because they go over the hour.

I am sorry you take what I am saying negatively. I can assure you there is nothing negative in what I am saying.

Also whatever you call your training facility make no difference to me. I only used a word that represents a facility to train in. If you don't like the word gym or any other word I use, what can I say. To reverse things, you call it something that is not what I would call it also. I simply just understand what you are referring to and that be that. Just like some say boot of the car and others say trunk of the car. Makes no diff to me, I understand what is being referred to. Does not bother me one way or another. I am in the U.S. and if I use a word that you don't, doesn't mean any disrespect, that is just the word used.

Even here in the U.S. people use different words for the same things depending on what part of the states you are from. In conversation the meaning is understood.

We all lab and we all experiment. If you are practicing something to make it work then both of those terms apply. If not then no need to practice, just do and everything you do should just work no matter what.

We train to get bigger, stronger, faster. We practice (lab, experiment) to understand and get smarter and to make techniques work.

 

[Bruno@MT]

Our training sessions last an hour and a half, 2 times per week, and are focused on the teaching / learning structure. At the end of the class there can be between 0 and 20 minutes for 'free practice' where students can review their grade specific materials, and the sensei keeps an eye on things and answers individual questions.

It is expected that you do the additional stuff like physical / endurance training in your own time. It's not mandatory and not everyone does it. It depends on what people want out of their training. Currently I do cardio training, some endurance training, and some bag work or technique 2 to 3 times per week outside of class.

That way the classes themselves become more useful to me because I can spend that time on learning and refining instead of trying to keep going or trying to remember what a specific technique looked like again.

 

[Tez3]

I teach and train TMA as well as MMA and I generally find that it takes longer to teach TMA kicks as you are trying to make people conform to a set way but frankly there is only so many ways you can perform kicks or punch for that matter!

A gym and a club aren't different words for the same thing, we are a martial arts club with the values and spirit of brotherhood and good sportsmanship that implies, here at least a gym is a place to work out, to do your fitness etc with no code of conduct connected to it and is a commercial venue. I do understand that it is probably different in the States, I would compare it more to using the word 'fag' rather than trunk or boot. Fag has a completely different meaning to you than it for does me, not nearly the same and far more insulting!

 

[granfire]

I find that in a class with a lot of drills one hour is really plenty. When you do more partner work, or in the grappling classes 1 hour is really short because there is a lot of down time.

 

[ATC]

Fag has a completely different meaning to you than it for does me, not nearly the same and far more insulting!

If you called me a fag that would be insulting, even if calling me a cigarette. However if you asked me for a fag and I realize that you are from England then I would not be offended at all and simply respond with an, I don't smoke.

It is all in the content or context. If you know I am not trying to insult but simply using a different word because of culture then no need to take the word as offensive.

I understand what you are saying when you refer to your club, we may use the term team in place of club. Our jackets and uniforms actually say Team TAEMA on them. However I am speaking of the facility in which your clubs trains when I say gym or even studio. I am not referring to your club. Even if I trained in my garage I would call it a gym for the purpose of what I am using it for.

 

[zDom]

I'm not sure I get the meaning of "experimenting" with a technique.

Instruction on a particular technique, say a sidekick, is done initially.

Then its reps, reps and more reps with occasional critique to make sure those reps are done as close to correct as possible.

If someone wants to "experiment" with a "better" way to do a sidekick, they need to go somewhere else (and good luck with that )

In our world, the wheels have already been invented: no point wasting time re-inventing them when a student SHOULD be getting their repetitions in.


Unless you mean as experimenting WHEN to use that sidekick — and that would pretty much have to happen during free sparring, wouldn't it?

Maybe I'm just not understanding what you mean by "labbing."