Your thoughts on these locks?

[Wing Woo Gar]

Looks very much like Aikido with a bit of Daito Ryu Aikijujitsu mixed in there. This must be the Chinese version of this stuff???

Chi na or Qin na. It’s just one tool in the tool box, no magic necessary.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

When I see this kind of lock I always wonder why does the tori left the second hand of ukre free? Uke easily can block the lock with free hand.
A few times some aikido, self defence, etc "masters" tried to show me how this lock work and I always stopped their attempts just keeping attacked hand with the second one.
Every time they were surprized and angry.

This is why i like BJJ approach very much - first isolate the limb, then lock.

Most competitions won’t allow small joint manipulations for obvious reasons. It’s more difficult to keep fighting with broken or dislocated fingers but not necessarily a fight stopper. They were surprised and angry because they were trying to demonstrate how it works. You were not a compliant uke. Demo is not sparring. You should save that non compliant counter for the opponent you spar AFTER the demo. If I have a student try that I will very likely abandon the demo and counter the counter at my full speed and with less concern for their comfort. Respect gets respect.

 

[wab25]

Chi na or Qin na. It’s just one tool in the tool box, no magic necessary.

I never said magic was involved. It just looked very similar to drills I have done in Aikido and a few techniques I have done in Daito Ryu. Since this guy has a Chinese lineage in his arts.... I figured this was the Chinese version....

 

[wab25]

You were not a compliant uke. Demo is not sparring. You should save that non compliant counter for the opponent you spar AFTER the demo. If I have a student try that I will very likely abandon the demo and counter the counter at my full speed and with less concern for their comfort.

A demo is not sparring.... however, the demo should take into account the other free hand... even if it is subtle. The demo should break their structure, take their balance and put you in an advantageous position.... even though it is a cooperative demo. This way when Mr ICounterAlot is uke for the demo, you don't actually have to change much.... just feed his counter into the lock and let him apply it to himself. This way, instead of abandoning the demo, you just get more real with the demo...

For many of these wrist locks, the key is the shoulder of the wrist you are locking. Yes, their other hand is free... but if you can go through the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder.... Like the guy was demonstrating in the OP... you should be able to keep the shoulder between you and the free hand. That is, for the free hand to make contact with you, it must not only cross his center, but also cross his shoulder as well. This gives you two choices when the punch comes. The first is to step back, taking the wrist, elbow and most importantly shoulder with you, thus keeping his shoulder between him and you. Usually, in this case, uke better know how to fly and take a fall or things start coming apart. The other thing you can do is move in and behind that shoulder. Most of the time, this will lead to a takedown, that you can add pain to by winding the lock tighter on the way down. This way gives you a bit more control, so as to not injure uke... while still getting his attention. However, both of these require that during the demo.... you effect his wrist, elbow and shoulder to break his structure and take his balance. It also requires you to pay attention to uke, even during the demo. In my opinion, these are all things that make a good demo good.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It’s really not the locks, although good mechanics are important. There are only so many ways the body can move. Locks are easier to apply when the opponent is stunned or damaged in some way. We use many breaks and locks especially for the knife portion. We attempt to isolate the knife, have a few standard entries that we use as destructions and then attempt the break, lock,disarm or drive back. This is a loose description.

My entire understanding of locks is that the purpose of locks are to destroy the joint. They are supposed to happen quick enough so that it causes a natural response instead of a trained response. Lock some to slow gives people time to void the natural response and to engage the trained response. Lock someone quickly and it triggers the natural response. Lock someone too fast and the joint gets destroyed.

I think videos like fit in the Concept Box. At the best it's a discussion, at the worst is a misunderstanding of application.

 

[JowGaWolf]

You are 100% correct regarding training partners.

Do you imagine your locks would work on the guy in the video?

It would work on the guy in the video unless he's git a lot of flexibility. Throw a few punches and kicks and he'll give all the resistance that's needed to lock him.

 

[Holmejr]

When I see this kind of lock I always wonder why does the tori left the second hand of ukre free? Uke easily can block the lock with free hand.
A few times some aikido, self defence, etc "masters" tried to show me how this lock work and I always stopped their attempts just keeping attacked hand with the second one.
Every time they were surprized and angry.

This is why i like BJJ approach very much - first isolate the limb, then lock.

So you showed dis respect to a “master” when they tried to show you a static technique. Nice. Maybe he should have hit you in the throat first then break your wrist. 😂

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

I never said magic was involved. It just looked very similar to drills I have done in Aikido and a few techniques I have done in Daito Ryu. Since this guy has a Chinese lineage in his arts.... I figured this was the Chinese version....

I didn’t mean that in a snarky way. Sorry if I came off that way.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

A demo is not sparring.... however, the demo should take into account the other free hand... even if it is subtle. The demo should break their structure, take their balance and put you in an advantageous position.... even though it is a cooperative demo. This way when Mr ICounterAlot is uke for the demo, you don't actually have to change much.... just feed his counter into the lock and let him apply it to himself. This way, instead of abandoning the demo, you just get more real with the demo...

For many of these wrist locks, the key is the shoulder of the wrist you are locking. Yes, their other hand is free... but if you can go through the wrist, to the elbow, to the shoulder.... Like the guy was demonstrating in the OP... you should be able to keep the shoulder between you and the free hand. That is, for the free hand to make contact with you, it must not only cross his center, but also cross his shoulder as well. This gives you two choices when the punch comes. The first is to step back, taking the wrist, elbow and most importantly shoulder with you, thus keeping his shoulder between him and you. Usually, in this case, uke better know how to fly and take a fall or things start coming apart. The other thing you can do is move in and behind that shoulder. Most of the time, this will lead to a takedown, that you can add pain to by winding the lock tighter on the way down. This way gives you a bit more control, so as to not injure uke... while still getting his attention. However, both of these require that during the demo.... you effect his wrist, elbow and shoulder to break his structure and take his balance. It also requires you to pay attention to uke, even during the demo. In my opinion, these are all things that make a good demo good.

I would not apply it the way the guy in the video did. I think we are in agreement that if we chose a joint lock, we put that on because a position of advantage was achieved first. I honestly can’t imagine using that in a real fight. It’s just stuff that is good to know in an anatomical sense. In any case I would be surprised if a student tried to do what was described above. I would think they were certainly missing the point of the demo. Again, it wouldn’t happen that way at my gym because I would give a setup for plausible application rather than just apply the lock on a person standing in front of me. It makes me wonder if that instructor can set up the lock in the first place.

 

[Holmejr]

Most competitions won’t allow small joint manipulations for obvious reasons. It’s more difficult to keep fighting with broken or dislocated fingers but not necessarily a fight stopper. They were surprised and angry because they were trying to demonstrate how it works. You were not a compliant uke. Demo is not sparring. You should save that non compliant counter for the opponent you spar AFTER the demo. If I have a student try that I will very likely abandon the demo and counter the counter at my full speed and with less concern for their comfort. Respect gets respect.

One of our first instructions to new students. Do NOT counter the teacher!

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

One of our first instructions to new students. Do NOT counter the teacher!

Well I don’t typically have any problems with this, because I am gentle with my students. They mean a lot to me and are the measure of my successes as a teacher. I like to think of them as new members of my family. I think that my current students would not like that kind of thing very much. I can usually see this kind of behavior coming ahead of time, I have a student that will love to rend that disrespectful person like a dishrag.

 

[drop bear]

Remember it was just a demonstration of certain principles under controlled conditions. There was no toughing anything out in this scenario. The purpose of these kinds of lessons are demonstrating subtle principles. Where, and how, they would be applied is another question altogether.

Take a look at his website if you are curious to know a little more about the guy and his work:

What is Prana Dynamics? – Prana Dynamics

prana-dynamics.com

Provided any of it works the way he says it does.

 

[drop bear]

One of our first instructions to new students. Do NOT counter the teacher!

Yes and no.

There should be an opportunity to go live and try it. Otherwise you are creating a false success.

I have hit those locks live. And I have missed them because people snap out of them because I go too slow.

That improves my ability to hit those locks.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Yes and no.

There should be an opportunity to go live and try it. Otherwise you are creating a false success.

I have hit those locks live. And I have missed them because people snap out of them because I go too slow.

That improves my ability to hit those locks.

I agree with you. To avoid injuries to brand new people it’s good to let them play with it a bit before trying to apply it live. Nothing screws up a training schedule like a sprain or fracture. Go too fast and injure someone who is new and they may not return.

 

[JowGaWolf]

I agree with you. To avoid injuries to brand new people it’s good to let them play with it a bit before trying to apply it live. Nothing screws up a training schedule like a sprain or fracture. Go too fast and injure someone who is new and they may not return.

Joint locks were always my biggest worry when teaching students. I was always afraid that someone would go too hard on someone who wasn't resisting. I start them off slow and from there learn how to control speed of application by trying to get to the lock fast. But application of a lock was always slow. Enough to hurt but not destroy.

The other fear was that some students want to fight out of a joint lock without realizing they are make the lock work better by doing so.

 

[drop bear]

It's about being slow with submissions.

Here he talks about how important attacking the elbow is to a wrist l9ck.

In OPs video. Failed wristlock guy does not attack the elbow.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

Joint locks were always my biggest worry when teaching students. I was always afraid that someone would go too hard on someone who wasn't resisting. I start them off slow and from there learn how to control speed of application by trying to get to the lock fast. But application of a lock was always slow. Enough to hurt but not destroy.

The other fear was that some students want to fight out of a joint lock without realizing they are make the lock work better by doing so.

This where I would remind them that yielding so that they can move their body around the arm instead of resisting is a better defense once the lock is past the point of reversal.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

It's about being slow with submissions.

Here he talks about how important attacking the elbow is to a wrist l9ck.

In OPs video. Failed wristlock guy does not attack the elbow.

Have you run into someone that just feels like rubber joints? I have one guy that just does not seem to have a hard stop in his wrist. I was honestly surprised. It felt like I would have to go much farther than safe to hit the break point.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Have you run into someone that just feels like rubber joints? I have one guy that just does not seem to have a hard stop in his wrist. I was honestly surprised. It felt like I would have to go much farther than safe to hit the break point.

Could potentially have Ehler Danlos syndrome. I've had a few people like that, one of whom was confirmed to have EDS.

 

[Taiji Rebel]