Wtf

[Cyriacus]

I don't think it is a contradiction. I am the same as msmitht, it's not because I think other forms are worse - just that I don't enjoy watching them as much as for me it's in the technical details not in the "performance". So I cannot judge technical details as well in poomsae I do not know. It doesn't make me closed minded, just that as a personal preference I prefer watching forms I know (and hence with a limited amount of cash, I choose those).

Im mainly addressing the viability of a Dojang still being a KKW Dojang just because it teaches these Forms Additionally.

Im not so much calling it a Contradiction, as much as questioning Open Mindedness.
Now, there is a CHANCE that he just phrased that Terribly, and didnt mean for it to read as "I only attend Tourneys that allow Taeguek AND NOTHING ELSE". But hey, as it stands.

Which isnt questioning Personal Choice - Its just that his Personal Viewing Preference isnt quite relevant to the Discussion at hand, if thats the case.
The Discussion at hand is; "Can It Still Be A KKW Dojang, If It Practitions Palgwe In Addition To Taeguek, For The Sake Of Tradition, Completionism, Or Any Other Cause?"

Well, Actually, the Discussion is meant to be about how long WTF Dojangs spend doing Forms. But since were now in this Middle of this Conversation, ill just Wager on either the Debate Ending, or Me Agreeing to Disagree in the Hopes this Poor Thread wont be Derailed for any more Time than it needs to be for a bit of Idle Banter.

 

[miguksaram]

Just to make sure im reading you Correctly, youd Agree that a School is still KKW, as long as they dont *Just* teach the Palgwe, and that the Palgwe are an Addition, rather than the Focus?--

Must We Remain Derailed?

What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.

Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.

 

[miguksaram]

These two statements are self contradictory. Think about it.

No they do not. What I have an open mind about food but I refuse to eat brussel sprouts nor will I order any dinner that has brussel sprouts in it. Why, because I have tasted brussel sprouts and do not like the taste. Does this make me closed minded?

He has been to enough tournaments where Palgwe or other forms are allowed to be used and has developed a distaste for how they are ran. So he just avoids those types of tournaments. He is open minded, he just does not like certain things based on what he experienced in the past.

 

[miguksaram]

Of course there are. That doesn't mean they're not worth learning.

I believe he said that they are obsolete and rendered useless outside of the school or organization that you might be with. While they may still be in use in some open tournaments, they are still obsolete forms when it comes to KKW standards. This is no different than for me to go out and learning pascal programming. While it may be worth learning, it is not widely used nor does it help as much as opposed to learning 'C' language.

And attempting to deny the huge influence that karate had on the development of Tae Kwon Do is futile and dishonest.

How is he denying karate's influence? Just because you don't practice 'karate' life forms you deny the roots? Are you saying a doctor not using leeches is denying the influence of mid-evil development of medicine? Modern practice, modern development of poomsae.

I notice you have a TSD logo. I will assume you practice all chuan'fa and Shotokan forms as well as your TSD forms so not to deny it roots?

Not true at all. There are plenty of open tournaments where the palgwe forms would be every bit as acceptable as the taegeuk.

They may be accepted, but how many people utilize them? Being a part of NASKA and AKA I have rarely seen Palgwe forms used in open tournaments. However, I do see Gaebaek and Koryo done a lot.

You mean, the Chang Hon tul with the long, wide stances? The influence of karate is every bit as apparent in the Chang Hon forms as in the Palgwe. Nor are they endorsed by the Kukkiwon. And yet, an awful lot of people seem to learn Tae Kwon Do just fine, while practicing them.

No one is saying that they are not learning TKD. What we are saying is that they are not learning KKW TKD IF they are not learning and using taeguks as the core poomsae set in which to promote their students. Why you decided to take this into the whole direction is a bit beyond me.

Alternatively, some might simple be unwilling to ignore, deny or forget the origins of the art. The palgwes are not "obsolete".
Tae Kwon Do exists outside and completely independent of the Kukkiwon. Open your mind.

Already answered in the above. No one is denying roots and no one is saying you are not doing TKD if you are not doing KKW forms.

 

[miguksaram]

Well, Actually, the Discussion is meant to be about how long WTF Dojangs spend doing Forms. But since were now in this Middle of this Conversation, ill just Wager on either the Debate Ending, or Me Agreeing to Disagree in the Hopes this Poor Thread wont be Derailed for any more Time than it needs to be for a bit of Idle Banter.

This is par for the course. Most all of our threads get hijacked. ha.ha.ha.ha..

 

[DSMartialArts]

How much time does a regular class spend on forms? Is it mostly drills.

It varies from school and class. At my school Wednesday is Forms day. Our class is 1 1/2 hours so for the first 45 minutes we do basic drills and second 45 minutes are spent on forms. Monday is Self Defense and Friday is just a mix, sometimes forms sometimes not.

 

[DSMartialArts]

I think it varies widely both from day to day, but also from school to school.
One of our 1st Dan students started college this year. The club he's working with there (run by a 6th or 7th Dan) spends virtually no time on forms. From what he says, 10-15 minutes once a week.
In our school, it varies from day to day. I'd say at least 10-15 minutes each class, sometimes more, and always more right around promotional exams. On average, we run through Kicho and Palgwe forms every class, with the Yudanja forms being done probably once a week.
As extra, my wife & I are always there for about an hour before the beginner class starts and people who are struggling with a new form or are getting ready to test can come in early for extra work. It's also been suggested that (if the Y will let us have the room) it would be nice to add a 60-90 min Poomsae class one day each week.

It depends on how the instructors view forms, some people don't see,understand or like forms, so they don't spend time teaching them, except maybe for belt testing purposes. One of our instructor loves forms, any new form you can find to teach her she will gladly learn and teach it, no matter the style of origin. I have come to see the form as a good teaching tool. The students get repetion and they reinforce basics. You need a strong foundation to build a strong house. Just my opinion.

 

[msmitht]

Thankyou for Phrasing that somewhat better than I did.
My Initial Reply entailed saying that these Forms are a part of Taekwondo. And you dont need to be a "Mini-Organisation" to Practise them.

My reference was to CURRENT KKW tkd
1; We know.
2; Nice Open Mindedness
3.5; I fail to see how the Second Half is relevant. Unless youre secretly saying "Silly 'Other' TKD Styles. *Scoffs*".
4; And yet, Archery is still Actively Practiced. And Unarmed Combat is still utilised by the Military, despite Short Range Firearms being Invented.

Have been to many tourneys in the last 35 years. Do not attend non wtf/usat sanctioned events anymore because they do not always follow current standards.
As a former Infantry Marine I will take my m16 or m40a1 over your bow that throws sticks anyday.I was an avid archer in my youth. I was referring to evolution and necessary changes.

Just to make sure im reading you Correctly, youd Agree that a School is still KKW, as long as they dont *Just* teach the Palgwe, and that the Palgwe are an Addition, rather than the Focus?
Correct

Must We Remain Derailed?

Your opinion differs from mine. No big deal. nuff said.

 

[msmitht]

What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.

Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.

exactly

 

[msmitht]

I believe he said that they are obsolete and rendered useless outside of the school or organization that you might be with. While they may still be in use in some open tournaments, they are still obsolete forms when it comes to KKW standards. This is no different than for me to go out and learning pascal programming. While it may be worth learning, it is not widely used nor does it help as much as opposed to learning 'C' language.


How is he denying karate's influence? Just because you don't practice 'karate' life forms you deny the roots? Are you saying a doctor not using leeches is denying the influence of mid-evil development of medicine? Modern practice, modern development of poomsae.

I notice you have a TSD logo. I will assume you practice all chuan'fa and Shotokan forms as well as your TSD forms so not to deny it roots?


They may be accepted, but how many people utilize them? Being a part of NASKA and AKA I have rarely seen Palgwe forms used in open tournaments. However, I do see Gaebaek and Koryo done a lot.


No one is saying that they are not learning TKD. What we are saying is that they are not learning KKW TKD IF they are not learning and using taeguks as the core poomsae set in which to promote their students. Why you decided to take this into the whole direction is a bit beyond me.


Already answered in the above. No one is denying roots and no one is saying you are not doing TKD if you are not doing KKW forms.

Ditto

 

[msmitht]

All forms can be useful. My references were for advancing in KKW tkd and competing at their tournaments(WTF/USAT). Trying to make me look like I do not know or care about the roots of tkd is not only ridiculous it is rude. It is the same as trying to put words in my mouth. It would be the same as me saying that you do TSD so you dont know jack about CURRENT, modern day TKD. Did I mention that one of my gms was a direct student of Hwang Kee and that in addition to my KKW 5th dan I hold a MDK 6th dan, a itf 2nd dan and a Brown belt in BJJ? Oh that's right, I am close minded.
You should know who and what you are talking about b4 you speak (write).
If you want you could teach TKD dance, weapons training and gymnastics at your school. Good for you if you do. When it comes time to test for your KUKKIWON DAN all that matters are the Taegueks, Yondanja poomsae, breaking and sparring. Anything else only matters to your school(don't get me wrong, learning other styles and forms will help you become a better martial artist)

to answer the OP, we train poomsae 25% of every class except for the competition sparring class(obviously)

 

[puunui]

Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms. The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards. If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them. I am all about forms. I learned the chong han-set because it was the first tkd hyung(poomsae). One of my gm's did both taeguek and palgwe.

I was told that the technical standards for Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae are the same, especially the stances. In both sets, the stances are shorter and narrower than the typical karate standard, closer to the Okinawan standard.

 

[msmitht]

I was told that the technical standards for Taeguek and Palgwae poomsae are the same, especially the stances. In both sets, the stances are shorter and narrower than the typical karate standard, closer to the Okinawan standard.

If you follow the current KKW tkd standards then yes, the basics are the same. Most GMs (not all)who still teach the Palgwe form set use the older, wider stances. Anyone who learned tkd before the 1980's learned long and wide front stances, triple shoulder width horse and back stances and long, non squared tiger stances. That was the norm back then.
You have to take into consideration the fact that many tkd masters and GMs were originally itf/mdk/tsd that converted to KKW tkd. They kept the stances the same and just learned the new patterns.

 

[ATC]

If you follow the current KKW tkd standards then yes, the basics are the same. Most GMs (not all)who still teach the Palgwe form set use the older, wider stances. Anyone who learned tkd before the 1980's learned long and wide front stances, triple shoulder width horse and back stances and long, non squared tiger stances. That was the norm back then.
You have to take into consideration the fact that many tkd masters and GMs were originally itf/mdk/tsd that converted to KKW tkd. They kept the stances the same and just learned the new patterns.

Yes, under our old master we were MDK but did the taegueks with old stances. When our current master took over and went to the KKW standards it took forever to retrain the muscle memory to shorten and narrow in the stances. We still get students in from time to time that have come back after years off and they all have (had) wide and long and deep stances.

Now that I am use to the new stances it is a lot better on my knees and hips. I could not go back to the old ways if I wanted to.

 

[Cyriacus]

Your opinion differs from mine. No big deal. nuff said.

Im more than willing to accept that.

Just one thing though;

--
A:​

What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.

Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.

exactly

B:

Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms. The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards. If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them. I am all about forms.

C:

No, they are not. I have been to 3 master instructor courses (2 here, 1 in korea) and 4 poomsae seminars put on by the kukkiwon. Not once did we talk about or practice the Palgwe forms. If your school still does them then so be it. They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore.

--

Logical Contradiction in Reasoning.
And im full well aware thats being either Picky or Observant, depending on your Viewpoint

Just My Contribution, to Extending this Derailment ​

 

[msmitht]

Im more than willing to accept that.Just one thing though;--A:​

B:C:--Logical Contradiction in Reasoning.And im full well aware thats being either Picky or Observant, depending on your Viewpoint ??????Just My Contribution, to Extending this Derailment ​

??????

 

[puunui]

If you follow the current KKW tkd standards then yes, the basics are the same. Most GMs (not all)who still teach the Palgwe form set use the older, wider stances. Anyone who learned tkd before the 1980's learned long and wide front stances, triple shoulder width horse and back stances and long, non squared tiger stances. That was the norm back then.
You have to take into consideration the fact that many tkd masters and GMs were originally itf/mdk/tsd that converted to KKW tkd. They kept the stances the same and just learned the new patterns.

What you say is true. However, when the KTA Ad Hoc Committee created the Palgwae, Yudanja and Taeguek poomsae, they were created using the shorter more natural stances which by the way were originally taught back in the 1940's. In 1967, when the KTA was meeting to discuss the creation of the new poomsae, GM LEE Won Kuk returned to Korea and gave a series of seminars emphasizing the shorter, more natural, narrower stances, which is what he learned in Japan. But after he left, his students and others became fascinated with Japanese Karate and the stances became wider and longer, during the later 50's and early 60's (which by the way is when many of the grandmasters out there began learning). GM LEE Won Kuk was upset about that, gave his seminars, which was incorporated in the new KTA poomsae in 1967-1972. So the new poomsae were always supposed to be done with the shorter narrower stances (you cannot land on your starting mark otherwise). Many instructors, having trained for a number of years in the longer wider stance (which is a competition stance by the way, think of the angle and width of a cover punch for example), felt comfortable with that and as you say, did it that way when doing the Palgwae, Taeguek and Yudanja poomsae.

 

[puunui]

Yes, under our old master we were MDK but did the taegueks with old stances.

Who was the original master of your dojang?

 

[Cyriacus]

??????

First you say that if a School teaches Palgwe, they are No Longer KKW Standard, even if its just in Addition. And are a Mini-Org.

Then, agree with miguksaram, with the Response, "Exactly", to his Reply;
"
What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school.

Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school.
"

In other words, first you are saying that a School is no longer KKW if it teaches Palgwe, even in addition.
Then agree that "Anything else they Teach OUTSIDE of the Standards by the KKW is Totally up to the Individual School."

 

[msmitht]

First you say that if a School teaches Palgwe, they are No Longer KKW Standard, even if its just in Addition. And are a Mini-Org.Then, agree with miguksaram, with the Response, "Exactly", to his Reply;"What I am saying, is that for a school to be considered a KKW TKD school, they must utilizing the basic standards set forth by the KKW, which includes Taeguk as the forms required to advance in rank. If they are not, then they should not consider themselves a KKW style school. Anything else that they teach outside of the standards set by KKW is totally up to the individual school."In other words, first you are saying that a School is no longer KKW if it teaches Palgwe, even in addition.Then agree that "Anything else they Teach OUTSIDE of the Standards by the KKW is Totally up to the Individual School."
Ok, I get it now. What I meant was you will never be required to perform the palgwe forms For kukkiwon promotion. Individual schools can teach what they want and can be kkw schools but taeguek, yondanja poomsae, kyroogi and kyuk pa are the only requirements that the kkw grades on. Whatever an instructor adds on is up to them but is not a part of kkw tkd.Does that clarify? I can see how you may have read it wrong.