Wtf

Discussion in 'Tae-Kwon-Do' started by rabbit, Sep 14, 2011.

  1. rabbit

    rabbit Blue Belt

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    How much time does a regular class spend on forms? Is it mostly drills.
     
  2. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master Black Belt

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    The only answer to this is it depends on the class.

    In our class, it depends on the week. I'd generally say 20 minutes, but recently it's been a lot more as we're trying to standardise everyone closer to the Kukkiwon definitions.
     
  3. ralphmcpherson

    ralphmcpherson Senior Master

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    We're not strictly WTF and we do palgwe forms, but we would spend probably 20 mins on average. Sometimes a lot more, sometimes a lot less. Coming into grading we tend to focus pretty heavily on form.
     
  4. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

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    I don't know how much time TKD schools spend. I seem to remember 40+ years ago we pent a fair amount of time on forms. Perhaps to answer how much time should be spent, and is it is only a drill of perhaps questionable value, I think you should consider all forms as a multiple attacker defense. Looked at that way, you might even want to spend time at home going through your forms.

    If you weren't that wasn't the intent of your question, my apologies.
     
  5. StudentCarl

    StudentCarl 3rd Black Belt

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    Depends on the plans for the particular class. With very rare exceptions, we'll do forms at least once through in every class. Right now I'm working with some groups to tighten up forms, so, for instance, last night with the family class we did forms for 3/4 of class, first tightening and coaching, then chaining them together. With some of the advanced classes, we'll sometimes do taegeuks 1-8 3 or 4 times through as a warmup.
     
  6. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    I think it varies widely both from day to day, but also from school to school.
    One of our 1st Dan students started college this year. The club he's working with there (run by a 6th or 7th Dan) spends virtually no time on forms. From what he says, 10-15 minutes once a week.
    In our school, it varies from day to day. I'd say at least 10-15 minutes each class, sometimes more, and always more right around promotional exams. On average, we run through Kicho and Palgwe forms every class, with the Yudanja forms being done probably once a week.
    As extra, my wife & I are always there for about an hour before the beginner class starts and people who are struggling with a new form or are getting ready to test can come in early for extra work. It's also been suggested that (if the Y will let us have the room) it would be nice to add a 60-90 min Poomsae class one day each week.
     
  7. msmitht

    msmitht Black Belt

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    you do know that the kkw and wtf stopped doing palgwe forms a LONG time ago, don't you?
     
  8. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    So? Does that lessen the value of these traditional forms?
     
  9. Master Dan

    Master Dan Master Black Belt

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    varies every class and this is related to intermediate and advanced. We also require Palgwe forms 20-30 minutes with some specials we video tape individuals and replay on big screen in class so we can help them see problems with basic technique or especially manorisms or nervous ticks they mus break. We also have senior students who are learning to be instructors learn to identify different key problems to correct. At other times we select or explain discuss applications practical to the movements which is ongoing and evolves based on the experience and skill level of the student
     
  10. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    ...And?
    Theyre still a part of the Style. Just because not everywere still teaches them doesnt make that less True.
     
  11. msmitht

    msmitht Black Belt

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    No, they are not. I have been to 3 master instructor courses (2 here, 1 in korea) and 4 poomsae seminars put on by the kukkiwon. Not once did we talk about or practice the Palgwe forms. If your school still does them then so be it. They are not part of Kukkiwon TKD anymore.
     
  12. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    This is irrelevant to me, really. Im mainly saying that if a Dojang still practices them, then whether they are still KKW/WTF becomes debatable. But really, its Kukkiwon Standard with some Additional Forms. Is that so wrong?
     
  13. miguksaram

    miguksaram Master of Arts

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    Yes a school can be KKW teaching obsolete forms in addition to the the Taeguks. If they claiming KKW but just teaching palgwe forms then they are not adhering to KKW standards and henceforth not KKW. They are just a TKD school teaching obsolete material. Nothing wrong with it, that is their choice, but it is just KKW standards.
     
  14. taekwondodo

    taekwondodo Green Belt

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    Before my instructor has Wednesday strictly for form class for his Team kids. Each class is 45 minutes long and there were 3 different level of form classes. Then I joined and convinced him to have more form classes. So now we have 3 days a week for competitive poomsae. :) The elite competition poomsae class, which I teach, is 1 hour long strictly concentrated on Poomsaes and techniques.
     
  15. msmitht

    msmitht Black Belt

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    Ok people,There are stylistic differences between the taeguek poomsae and the palgwe forms. The palgwe forms are more like karate kata. The stances are wider and deeper than current kkw standards. If you are practicing them in addition to taegeuk poomsae then good for you. Outside of your school and mini org you will never need to know them. I am all about forms. I learned the chong han-set because it was the first tkd hyung(poomsae). One of my gm's did both taeguek and palgwe. Back in the 80's he told us that we would no longer need to do palgwe because the kkw dropped them, so we dropped them.Then again, some tournaments are still run with a head of court with only 2 points for any head shot. Some still allow blue, black and green doboks because it is their friends bb club dobok. Maybe we should go back to light touch point sparring and believe that the earth is flat.The real problem is master instructors and gm's not going back to school. Would you trust a doctor to do complex heart surgery if they had not attended a medical seminar in 30 years? Think there might be new, updated methods or technology? How about learning korean from someone who learned it 30 years ago. Do you think that the language has not changed? Get updated or stay outdated!
     
  16. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    Of course there are. That doesn't mean they're not worth learning.

    And attempting to deny the huge influence that karate had on the development of Tae Kwon Do is futile and dishonest.

    Not true at all. There are plenty of open tournaments where the palgwe forms would be every bit as acceptable as the taegeuk.


    You mean, the Chang Hon tul with the long, wide stances? The influence of karate is every bit as apparent in the Chang Hon forms as in the Palgwe. Nor are they endorsed by the Kukkiwon. And yet, an awful lot of people seem to learn Tae Kwon Do just fine, while practicing them.

    Alternatively, some might simple be unwilling to ignore, deny or forget the origins of the art. The palgwes are not "obsolete".

    Tae Kwon Do exists outside and completely independent of the Kukkiwon. Open your mind. :)
     
  17. msmitht

    msmitht Black Belt

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    1. I was referring to kkw/usat/wtf schools. 2. I do not attend tourneys that allow any other forms except taeguek. 3. I know perfectly well that almost all of the founders had trained in japanese karate. I also know that the current martial art/sport of tkd wad developed in korea and has more practitioners than any other martial art including the "other" tkd styles.4. After the gun was invented the bow and arrow became obsolete:) mind is wide open:)
     
  18. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    These two statements are self contradictory. Think about it.
     
  19. Cyriacus

    Cyriacus Senior Master

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    Thankyou for Phrasing that somewhat better than I did.
    My Initial Reply entailed saying that these Forms are a part of Taekwondo. And you dont need to be a "Mini-Organisation" to Practise them.

    1; We know.
    2; Nice Open Mindedness :p
    3.5; I fail to see how the Second Half is relevant. Unless youre secretly saying "Silly 'Other' TKD Styles. *Scoffs*".
    4; And yet, Archery is still Actively Practiced. And Unarmed Combat is still utilised by the Military, despite Short Range Firearms being Invented.

    Just to make sure im reading you Correctly, youd Agree that a School is still KKW, as long as they dont *Just* teach the Palgwe, and that the Palgwe are an Addition, rather than the Focus?

    --

    Must We Remain Derailed?
     
  20. andyjeffries

    andyjeffries Master Black Belt

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    I don't think it is a contradiction. I am the same as msmitht, it's not because I think other forms are worse - just that I don't enjoy watching them as much as for me it's in the technical details not in the "performance". So I cannot judge technical details as well in poomsae I do not know. It doesn't make me closed minded, just that as a personal preference I prefer watching forms I know (and hence with a limited amount of cash, I choose those).
     

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