Would this work?

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by PhotonGuy, Nov 18, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,435
    Likes Received:
    377
    Trophy Points:
    158
  2. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    16,578
    Likes Received:
    3,929
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    Like any technique, the answer is and always will be "maybe". Everything is circumstantial and what works on occasion A may not work during very similar occasion B.

    To my mind, one of the indicators that a person should be considered a beginner is a focus on techniques, rather than principles.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 11, 2005
    Messages:
    5,545
    Likes Received:
    4,030
    Trophy Points:
    448
    Location:
    Lexington, KY
    It could work, depending on the circumstances.

    Some things to consider ...

    If the circumstances are not life-threatening (as in the scenario depicted where the opponent is reaching for a gun), then you are potentially opening yourself up for legal and moral liability issues.

    If the opponent is reaching for the gun, then there are a lot of ways things can go depending on how close he is to the gun, how close you are to the gun, and how close you are to the opponent and other factors besides. If you kick the opponent and fail to incapacitate him and he reaches the gun, then things may go very badly. What he shows probably wouldn't be my favored approach most of the time, but under some circumstances it might be the best option.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  4. Zero

    Zero Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    123
    First I don’t know much about this Larkin guy or his true abilities other than he apparently trained as a navy seal (and was prevented from entry into the UK over his training material or some such thing), which doesn’t make him a great fighter or SD expert in itself from my own limited experience (I have fought in the ring against military and have trained with SAS and mainstream military and they are no better than any other well trained martial artists or self defence experts, in fact I have found the cops I have trained with and fought against somewhat better fighters in the scheme of things, sorry army guys!!! (and not counting my older army cousin who used to whoop on me)). But this experience should hopefully mean he has trained in some key show-stopper techniques that have maximum effect with the minimum of expenditure and time. If he has really spent the previous twenty years focusing on SD on top of that then he should have some good stuff to show.

    That said, I have never drilled on a kick to the throat specifically when your opponent/assailant is in that position on the ground. Also, the application of the technique seems a little sloppy and off-balance to me but that could be just because he is trying to keep it as controlled as possible, he didn’t seem the most stable of kickers in my opinion... That doesn’t mean the technique itself ain’t gold.

    If I had standard footwear, or barefoot even, I would be going with a football kick to the head for a KO decapitation. From my own MMA (some) and kick boxing (a lot) experience and watching street fights I know these can be game-enders. If I had boots or hard toe shoes then the ribs would also be on but if a gun was in the equation and we are focusing on a kick response only, then it would be a kick to the head. Having kicked people in the head with multiple KOs I am comfortable with that having the result in most cases. I have never actually kicked deliberately or by accident someone in the throat (so maybe not the best placed to judge). To my eye and analysis, however, the neck/throat shot has too many variables, more than a head shot at least, in that position. The target is harder to hit, the hit may not be as clean. Also from shoulder movement, the opponent could deliberately or inadvertently deflect a lot of the shot away from the neck – that would be much harder to do if the focus is the head and if the guy’s hands are on the floor as in your video.

    Another comment: he executes the kick from too close in and from an almost semi smothered position and angle. I have trapped legs and taken down opponents when on the ground and they have come that close into me, any basic grappler or SD practitioner knows this. I would be winding up from further out and connecting with maximum impact to the head. I don’t buy the technique necessarily flipping the guy over like that from the way it is executed.

    I’m the first to say that any technique and target can be on but this would not be a go to move I’d put in the tool-kit. Happy to be shown the error of my ways by others more experienced with such.

    Now a reverse tiger mouth throat strike to the assailant in that position, well that’s an entirely different story - but only if the “deadly force technique” application of such is used and K-Man is no longer allowed to divulge such over the net.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  5. Zero

    Zero Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    123
    So what other technique would you employ PG if you have reservations with his move?
     
  6. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    13,461
    Likes Received:
    730
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Athol, Ma. USA
    As Tony said a legal implication apply not matter what you do if he is on the ground and you are standing and free of his grasp.
    Ok having said that I would also prefer a straight kick to the head or ribs instead of trying to aim for the throat. Most people would not be able to pull off a throat strike any time they wanted.
    Would the technique as shown work.? It could or it might not.
     
  7. Touch Of Death

    Touch Of Death Sr. Grandmaster

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    May 6, 2003
    Messages:
    11,610
    Likes Received:
    844
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Spokane Valley WA
    Well, what I would have done is kicked his arm out from under him, and when he assumes the push up position, there you are, patiently, waiting to stomp the elbow in a direction it doesn't go. :)
     
    • Like Like x 2
  8. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    1,221
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Australia
    I have no issue with what is being shown. Shin kick to the neck will at least contact the head whereas a kick to the ribs in this type of situation may not be a game ender.


    As for Tim Larkin. I like his material. I've followed it for years but much of it is directed at firearm use which is less relevant to those of us in Australia.
    :asian:
     
  9. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,435
    Likes Received:
    377
    Trophy Points:
    158
    In a situation like this I would kick the gun or stomp on his hand if he managed to get ahold of it before I was able to kick it. I would not kick to the guy's neck or head as depicted in the video as there is the possibility he could still manage to get the gun and use it in that case.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Zero

    Zero Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 6, 2006
    Messages:
    1,284
    Likes Received:
    297
    Trophy Points:
    123
    That's a good point and there is merit in that but I have been told by some who are far more into SD than I am that actually going for the weapon itself, depending on your own abilities and attributes, can be the wrong thing to do. Eg, you miss the gun and it is still in play, or by focusing on the gun, even for that instant to kick it away, your assailant has been given the time to take you down/out. Lots to think about. I would say kicking the guy in the head is more likely than a kick to his hand. To credibly target and damage the hand, would have to be a stomp and that means you have to be right in close. Another alternative as Touch of Death points out is kicking out the supporting arm and taking things from there but personally in that specific scenario I would still favour the head shot.
     
  11. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    Would what work? That's actually a serious question, for the record… are you asking if a kick to the throat can "work"? Well… sure… provided you actually kick him in the throat… Is what is presented, and the way it's presented, the best/easiest/most high-return/low risk technique available there? Nope. Would I rely on it? Nope. Would I use it? Doubtful… only if the situation called for it, and the opportunity presented itself… which is actually a lot of "if's"… Would it have the result shown? That's fairly questionable, actually…

    What I will say is that, with regards to the video itself, I have a large number of issues with what's shown, from a tactical, mechanical, legal, and practical level… the kick is performed too close, which means that the leg gets very little extension, robbing it of power, and actually making it harder to get the "ring around the neck" he's talking about… as well as putting your support leg in a dangerous (grabbable) position and range… tactically, it's highly questionable… the kick to the throat, even if the guy is going for a gun, is not necessary (or even the most likely to be successful… contrary to K-Man, I would advise a kick to the ribs instead… it's a larger target, which means that you'll get a result pretty much no matter what, even if not optimal, whereas the throat is too easy to miss… it's just too easy to glance off the shoulder, or clip the forehead, which won't give too much of a result under the adrenaline that would be felt), and all the follow-up, if you've prevented him from getting the gun is plain badly advised (you've kicked him in the throat, stomped the bladder, you're over the top of him, he's no longer a threat, doesn't have the gun, and you… break his neck?). So yeah, not a fan of this. Additionally, it had nothing to do with the title of the clip itself (using body weight in self defence… uh, no)… but I think we can blame Black Belt Magazine for that one…

    What would I do? Good question… and honestly, I wouldn't know without being in the position to assess first. Ideally, though, I'd be looking to go after the guy, not the weapon (which could be done multiple ways). Exactly how? Too many options to list here.
     
  12. K-man

    K-man Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Dec 17, 2008
    Messages:
    6,193
    Likes Received:
    1,221
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Australia
    Not often I disagree with Chris but ...

    in this case there are a number of reasons why I wouldn't be targeting the ribs and I would like to read Brian's thoughts on thus one. For me the ribs are low percentage for a couple of reasons. One, the opponent may have bulky clothing on and in some situations even a heavy vest. Two, as he leans forward to grab the weapon with his right hand the left arm is in the way of the kick. You might break the arm and still not stop him reaching the gun. Three, once he has the gun he will roll away from you to bring the weapon to bear. If you are a fraction late with the kick it's all over. "Chick, chick, bang!"

    So let's look to the kick to the neck. We are kicking with the left leg. A right leg kick may well be deflected but the left leg is kicking into the body mass. You might not get the neck but you will at least get the side of the head. For me that is high percentage.

    And finally, number four in the reasons why I would rely on the kicks to the ribs. In this situation both persons are fighting for their life. Under adrenalin the guy going for the gun won't even feel the kick to the ribs even if it breaks them. I've broken bones in tournaments, including ribs, and not even known about it until later. A kick to the neck, jaw or side of head is likely to finish the confrontation on the spot. At very worst it with stop the movement towards the weapon.
    :asian:
     
  13. Tez3

    Tez3 Sr. Grandmaster

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2006
    Messages:
    26,952
    Likes Received:
    4,414
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    England
    Larkin was excluded from the UK because he came specifically to 'lecture' in two areas that had recently had been serious riots, he was advocating more violence so the community groups protested ( on all sides) and he was excluded on the grounds of public safety, it didn't help his case that when he'd been over here before other groups had complained of his incitement to violence. He has strong views on British laws which as most people will agree are probably best kept to yourself when you are a visitor in a country. I remember the outcry over a British person giving his opinion on the USA gun control debate while he was in the US. :eek:

    Special forces martial arts skills don't have to be far superior to anyone elses, if it comes to face to face fighting their first plan has probably gone..... small blue,black and white birds..... up.

    Really? the names of a small bird is censored on here? good grief.
     
  14. Chris Parker

    Chris Parker Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    Joined:
    Feb 18, 2008
    Messages:
    6,055
    Likes Received:
    955
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Location:
    Melbourne, Australia
    To be absolutely clear, I wouldn't necessarily advocate a kick to the ribs/body either… although I would pick it over an attempted kick to the throat. Honestly, I have trouble even trying to figure out what my approach would be… as I find the set-up in the clip to be thoroughly artificial and lacking in reality… as a result, I don't really have much reason to continue arguing the benefits/issues in this, my friend… suffice to say we both have different tactical expressions and values here, which is probably to be expected considering our different backgrounds… all cool there.
     
  15. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    703
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    Perth, Western Australia
    If you kick the gun you would have to be careful not to miss such a small target and to be weary that you don't kick the gun into the hands of an accomplice.
     
  16. RTKDCMB

    RTKDCMB Senior Master

    Joined:
    Jan 19, 2013
    Messages:
    3,106
    Likes Received:
    703
    Trophy Points:
    213
    Location:
    Perth, Western Australia
    One option from that position is to go for a downward knife hand strike to the back of the neck. That way you are moving towards the gun at the same time and from the striking position you can use your other hand to grab or block his gun hand and prevent him from pointing the gun at you should he manage to grab it and turn over. The issue of kicking to the ribs is that you may just kick him into a position closer to the gun and he may still have the capacity pick it up and shoot you with it
     
  17. PhotonGuy

    PhotonGuy Senior Master

    Joined:
    Aug 14, 2013
    Messages:
    3,435
    Likes Received:
    377
    Trophy Points:
    158
    I've heard that in the Army in basic training they teach you unarmed fighting techniques and they teach you quick ways to kill with your bare hands. Im not sure if this is true but I heard that upon completing basic, or after you've been in the Army long enough and have learned enough, that you're about as good as the average black belt in a fight.
     
  18. oftheherd1

    oftheherd1 Senior Master

    Joined:
    May 12, 2011
    Messages:
    4,677
    Likes Received:
    812
    Trophy Points:
    263
    Think about that. Every cook, paper-pusher, medic, finance clerk, radio operator, etc, will be a trained killer after they have "... been in the Army long enough and have learned enough ..."? After you get past those job specialties that don't normally expect to be anywhere close to combat, how long is long enough? Normal enlistments are three years. All those other job specialties are needed and I am not trying to put them down, as any of them could (and have in the past) find themselves in combat roles, but you should see through such a statement as that. Also, most training will be with a primary weapon which would not be hands; rifles, artillery pieces, tank guns, etc, will get the most training. Those in jobs that don't normally involve combat operations will normally train for and work in that job all day, just as combat arms will normally train for combat operations.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. tshadowchaser

    tshadowchaser Sr. Grandmaster

    • MartialTalk Mentor
    • Founding Member
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Aug 29, 2001
    Messages:
    13,461
    Likes Received:
    730
    Trophy Points:
    248
    Location:
    Athol, Ma. USA
    Nope the hand to hand you get in basic is just that basic and not much of that either
     
    • Like Like x 3
  20. ballen0351

    ballen0351 Sr. Grandmaster

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2010
    Messages:
    10,331
    Likes Received:
    953
    Trophy Points:
    263
    I'd just pull my own gun and end it. Never use a kick where a gun will do. But honestly can't even think of a possible way other then made for TV make believe that you would end up in a situation like that.123
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

doorman self defence course dorset