Would Martial Arts created by women fundamentally be better than those created by men?

[jobo]

No, I think this holds up through any demographic.

Take your average desk job guy with a work desk to couch sedintary lifestyle and contrast him with the guy that twists rebar or moves drywall around for a living and the strength differential would be equally as significant.

or indeed the girl who moves drywall for a living

 

[drop bear]

Incompetent =/= smaller or weaker.

Oh. Ok. So you are training to fight some massive guy who just happens not to be able to fight.

Because that doesn't sound like ego stroking.

 

[dvcochran]

No, I think this holds up through any demographic.

Take your average desk job guy with a work desk to couch sedintary lifestyle and contrast him with the guy that twists rebar or moves drywall around for a living and the strength differential would be equally as significant.

My point is/was I am not suggesting women compete against men, or vise-versa. Anatomically we are different. That is not good and that is not bad. We were made for different purposes. Again, not good not bad, it just is. There will be records held by men that women will break and vice-versa. Again, not good, not bad.

I did a quick check and found that Margaret Court has 7 more Grand Slam titles than Roger Federer. That is huge IMHO.
Carly Lloyd is/was a Beast on the soccer field.

Sure, the person with an active lifestyle is going to be 'stronger'. Genetics plays a huge role as well. But it is not fair to paint the picture such that someone who has a sedentary job cannot be fit.

I am in a country where certain states/counties/school systems let boys who 'identify' as a girl compete against girls.
It doesn't get much more messed up than that.

 

[skribs]

No, I think this holds up through any demographic.

Take your average desk job guy with a work desk to couch sedintary lifestyle and contrast him with the guy that twists rebar or moves drywall around for a living and the strength differential would be equally as significant.

I actually think that's a big reason why we're getting weaker as a species overall. Yeah, we have exceptional people setting records, but most of us are just getting fatter and lazier. And if I'm perfectly honest....I don't think it's that big a deal.

We're getting more and more into the times where your intelligence is more important than your physical strength. Being able to carry heavy loads is less and less desirable as robots take over those jobs. Being able to provide customer service, troubleshooting, or come up with innovative ideas is more and more what brings success. These can be done just as well if you're built like Terry Crews or if you're built like Gabriel Iglesias (Fluffy).

Sure, it presents health problems. But we're already living longer than we used to.

Is our life better if we're in shape? Yes. But I don't think it's as necessary as it was before robots.

 

[skribs]

I am in a country where certain states/counties/school systems let boys who 'identify' as a girl compete against girls.
It doesn't get much more messed up than that.

Don't even get me started. Too late...
In my opinion, girls should be allowed to compete with boys if they so choose. Boys should not be allowed to go into a girl's league. It's a double standard and I stand by it 100%.

 

[Tez3]

I am in a country where certain states/counties/school systems let boys who 'identify' as a girl compete against girls.
It doesn't get much more messed up than that.

The situation is actually much more nuanced than that, it isn't just a case of identifying as a girl to compete, nor does it automatically mean that the transgender person will always win, some are in fact being beaten. You also have the opposite situation of transgender girls being forced to compete against boys. There's also the South Africa runner Caster Semenya who has naturally higher testosterone levels and who the athletic authorities want to drug.

This is a medical and scientific issue not a political one mods before you start warnings.

 

[dvcochran]

Don't even get me started. Too late...
In my opinion, girls should be allowed to compete with boys if they so choose. Boys should not be allowed to go into a girl's league. It's a double standard and I stand by it 100%.

I say keep it simple. Compete against each other. When the occasional female prodigy comes along and needs the competition let them compete with whoever they wish. But how can it fairly go the other way?

In my senior year of high school (1981)(damn, that looks funny when written out.) we had 3 girls try out for football. It was not pretty and it was not nice. One girl thought it would be funny and quit the first day. Figured out real quick it was not going to be funny. One quite sometime early on before the season started. One of the girls truly was better than some of the boys but there was just too much going against her in that time.
Things like this get complicated pretty quick when you look at the big picture of time and resources, morality, etc... That said, in a generation or two it would not surprise me if all public bathrooms will be built/made as unisex. A good or bad thing? I do not know. But I do know I am of the age that I do Not want my young teenage daughter showering after a practice with the boys. (hypothetical)

But I strongly agree, no male OR female should compete against the other because they 'identify' as such. IMHO.
I know, I am stirring a non PC pot, so be it.

 

[Tez3]

public bathrooms will be built/made as unisex.

Normal elsewhere in the world though. Sharing loos is fine, means nothing, the only problem is people who don't wash their hands. The ones you have to be careful about are the French paying single cubicles. We were in France and saw a British person very politely holding the door open as she came out for a British man. We shook our heads. You are supposed to shut the door after you, as the cubicles have water which comes down and washes everything (toilet paper etc in kept dry), lovely and hygienic, however the chap came out absolutely soaked.
Boys and girls showers are separate though, single cubicles with doors so everyone is private. Nudity however isn't a big issue in Europe, sex education also starts very early so the young people are more comfortable in their sexuality and how to deal with issues arising from issues like that.

 

[Martial D]

I actually think that's a big reason why we're getting weaker as a species overall. Yeah, we have exceptional people setting records, but most of us are just getting fatter and lazier. And if I'm perfectly honest....I don't think it's that big a deal.

We're getting more and more into the times where your intelligence is more important than your physical strength. Being able to carry heavy loads is less and less desirable as robots take over those jobs. Being able to provide customer service, troubleshooting, or come up with innovative ideas is more and more what brings success. These can be done just as well if you're built like Terry Crews or if you're built like Gabriel Iglesias (Fluffy).

Sure, it presents health problems. But we're already living longer than we used to.

Is our life better if we're in shape? Yes. But I don't think it's as necessary as it was before robots.

Well sure, but that's not at all relevant to the point I was making.

 

[Martial D]

or indeed the girl who moves drywall for a living

Naw, desk job guy will probably still be stronger than THAT rare unicorn.

 

[jobo]

Naw, desk job guy will probably still be stronger than THAT rare unicorn.

construction sites in this country have an increasing number of trade ladies, and no, if she is doing exacrly the same3 exercise as that which made are guy strong she will be equally strong, thats how exercise works

what your saying is the same as saying a girl who benches 250lbs cant be as strong as a guy who does

 

[Martial D]

construction sites in this country have an increasing number of trade ladies, and no, if she is doing exacrly the same3 exercise as that which made are guy strong she will be equally strong, thats how exercise works

what your saying is the same as saying a girl who benches 250lbs cant be as strong as a guy who does

Male and female physiology is very different. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

 

[jobo]

Male and female physiology is very different. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

and women have tes as well, and no its not very different at all

the same exercise will yeld the same results for both sex. at least in terms of strengh and she will most certainly be stronger than the pen pusher

 

[isshinryuronin]

The only martial art I know of that originated from a woman is Wing Chun,

Feng Qiniang and her martial art teacher father fled to Fukian province in south China following the razing (the late 1600's one) of the north Shaolin temple. Her father was killed, and vowing revenge, she redoubled her MA training and developed her own style: White Crane, after watching the evasive maneuvers of that bird. She defeated many challengers (men) and established her style which gained popularity. Likely 3rd or 4th generation students were Pan Yuba (teacher of Ryuryu Ko, influencer of Naha-Te), and KuSanKu, influencer of Shuri-Te. Thus, her style was a main root from which most all Okinawan karate evolved.

 

[Tez3]

Male and female physiology is very different. Testosterone is a hell of a drug.

As scientists are finding out the differences aren't as nearly as great as people first thought. women also have testosterone, some much more than others, and men have oestrogen and both have more hormones than just those.

What you are showing with your posts proves what Jackson Katz, an expert in gender violence studies, states... "that some men cling to their gender’s generally greater capacity for physical power as justification that “somehow, men are still more entitled to power,” “As women have started competing with men in areas that men had historically excluded them from, some men have retreated into this world where physical size and strength matters even more, because it’s the one area where they continue to hold advantage over women.”

Katz argues that this might help to explain some of the popularity and growth of American football, boxing, MMA and other violent sports. “A man might not be able to understand or articulate this, but the thinking comes down to, ‘Yes, a woman may make more money than me, my boss might be a woman, my wife might have better job than me, but none of them can play football,’” Katz says. He notes, though, that obsession with gladiator-type masculinity tends to be a predominantly American phenomenon."


You sound outraged that women could have the audacity to be strong and able to lift weights, do 'male' jobs etc. It's comedic in this day and age.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

As scientists are finding out the differences aren't as nearly as great as people first thought. women also have testosterone, some much more than others, and men have oestrogen and both have more hormones than just those.

What you are showing with your posts proves what Jackson Katz, an expert in gender violence studies, states... "that some men cling to their gender’s generally greater capacity for physical power as justification that “somehow, men are still more entitled to power,” “As women have started competing with men in areas that men had historically excluded them from, some men have retreated into this world where physical size and strength matters even more, because it’s the one area where they continue to hold advantage over women.”

Katz argues that this might help to explain some of the popularity and growth of American football, boxing, MMA and other violent sports. “A man might not be able to understand or articulate this, but the thinking comes down to, ‘Yes, a woman may make more money than me, my boss might be a woman, my wife might have better job than me, but none of them can play football,’” Katz says. He notes, though, that obsession with gladiator-type masculinity tends to be a predominantly American phenomenon."


You sound outraged that women could have the audacity to be strong and able to lift weights, do 'male' jobs etc. It's comedic in this day and age.

I don't think this is entirely true. And FYI: the strongest person I know is my best friend: a women who is an international rugby player. Literally no one I know could beat her in most tests of athleticism, and she also could beat about 90% of people I know in a fight (she learned kempo a while back, and learned boxing a lesser while back).

That said, there is a distinctive difference between men and women when it comes to specific sports. I'm certain that the best female basketball player is better than the average NBA player. And I'm also certain that, despite my own interest in basketball and playing it from about 10-18 every day for 2+ hours, that me or the others on my block could beat the people in the WNBA. Simply because those women were more talented then we were. But I'm also certain that they will never reach kobe bryant/michael jordan/lebron james level. There is a certain limit that's a result of biology, and outside of professional sports it doesn't matter in the slightest, but it does give men a distinct advantage in sports. Not an overcomable advantage-as I said the best WNBA players are probably better than the average NBA players, but that advantage still exists. And my assumption is this is true for most sports.

Tennis would actually be the best example of this, since it's a singular sport. So no other factors in play, but some of the best women in tennis have stated that they'd enjoy competing against the men, but they know they wouldn't win. While I haven't spoken to them personally, I would assume that's a result of them practicing against men and knowing that the top women aren't on equal footing with the top men.

Again, this has nothing to do with which is the better sex. To focus on your quote from katz-I really don't care who can play football. As I alluded to above, my friend is probably a much better football player than I am, and it really doesn't matter in the slightest, unless you're at a professional level. So I gain no personal benefit or superiority against women by the NFL being dominated by guys.

 

[Tez3]

I don't think this is entirely true.

You don't think it's true that women and men have testosterone and oestrogen? Scientists are finding out that the differences aren't as great as many think or have thought in the past. None of that is false.

The rest of it was directly for martial D's benefit because it fits him, it is not aimed at anyone else.

 

[Monkey Turned Wolf]

You don't think it's true that women and men have testosterone and oestrogen?

If you read the rest of what I said, I didn't make any mention of testosterone vs. estrogen. It was in regard to the rest. Obviously testosterone isn't the only difference, but there is a difference between men and women, which is what the rest of my post was addressing. And again, it doesn't mean that men or women are superior to the other, simply that men are more suited for the sports that society has created/popularized so far. Which is probably a result of men being in power at the time such sports were popularized.

 

[Tez3]

It was in regard to the rest. Obviously testosterone isn't the only difference, but there is a difference between men and women, which is what the rest of my post was addressing. And again, it doesn't mean that men or women are superior to the other, simply that men are more suited for the sports that society has created/popularized so far. Which is probably a result of men being in power at the time such sports were popularized.

As I said, that other bit was specifically addressed to martial d, not anyone else because of his attitude which is why I said this

What you are showing with your posts proves what Jackson Katz, an expert in gender violence studies, states

because this is exactly how he is

that some men cling to their gender’s generally greater capacity for physical power as justification that “somehow, men are still more entitled to power,” “

I appreciate you answering but it wasn't meant as points for you or anyone else because as you have shown you don't have that 'men are always stronger because they have testicles, women will always be weak because they don't' attitude.

 

[dvcochran]

Katz argues that this might help to explain some of the popularity and growth of American football, boxing, MMA and other violent sports. “A man might not be able to understand or articulate this, but the thinking comes down to, ‘Yes, a woman may make more money than me, my boss might be a woman, my wife might have better job than me, but none of them can play football,’” Katz says. He notes, though, that obsession with gladiator-type masculinity tends to be a predominantly American phenomenon."


You sound outraged that women could have the audacity to be strong and able to lift weights, do 'male' jobs etc. It's comedic in this day and age.

I do not know who Jackson Katz is. In no way do I mean to say women cannot do the things you listed (money, boss, job, lift weights, etc...). I fully agree.
I doubt we know the upper limit of female anatomy in regards to strength. It has taken millennia to get where we are. Most of this out of sheer necessity and a division of power that worked best for everybody for survival. Thankfully living has gotten Much easier for most and we are afforded freedoms not available in the past.

So let's try to narrow the topic a little the find some focus. You mentioned American football. If women were able to compete at even the college level consistently they would be. This is a money driven industry. The best players Will play.
I am of the mindset that there are attributes of the game a women should be able to do better mentally (receiving/catching). I surmise this from observation on watching people catch the ball. When our son was younger he played AAU 7 on 7 flag football. It was co-ed and some to the girls were definitely better than some of the boys.
When all the demands of playing the game at full contact are factored in, I suspect it quickly cancels out the slight advantage a female has in that one specific area. A female kicker is in the NFL right now (Jacksonville I think).

So the short answer is we all play to our strengths for the given environment. But some environments demand things that each sex can provide better than the other.

Will women and men find parity in anatomy in our lifetime? No, I do not think it is possible for the physical anatomy of the female body to change on a large without a great deal of time. Will it ever happen in a greater degree? I think so but not in a significant way. There is no getting around the fact we are built different and made for different purposes.

Like I said in an earlier post; there already are outliers. Females born with above average physic. If they wish to compete in, whatever, let them. I firmly believe that the social norms and legalities of today allow it.

Men, particularly, American men have been the driving force in military might for the USA since it's inception. All the things you mention about hormones which true. But I doubt we even knew what Testosterone was during say the Revolutionary War or 1812. Then the settlements grew and Western Expansion began. All of this required physical work to a degree that none of us can imagine. It formed this country and the people of the country. None of this can be achieved through a 'social experiment' or social change. It may slightly facilitate but for large scale female anatomy change to take place it will take time, millennia. If it can ever happen at all.

This discludes any idea or means of a person heavily modifying their body through chemicals and science. I still think genetics would play a big factor here as well. That DeWayne Johnson. I certainly could have never looked like him no matter what I put in my body. And yes to me, this is wrong on many levels. It is not tearing down to build back up. It is temporarily increasing attributes that usually come to a very bad end. How is that worth it.