Women Self Defence!

[Tez3]

Yes, definitely. I think all girls and women should take self defense classes with a proper teacher. It will help a lot with prevention of street assaults (especially sexual) on women if they have at least a basic set of skills for self defense. What do you mean from what thing women should start learning? "Thing" is move, system, martial art, instructor..?

Actual 'street' assaults on women aren't that common, however assaults and rapes by people known to the victims are scarily common. 90% of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, these rapes happen in places where the victim can often feel safe, the workplace, home etc. Any self defence training has to be appropriate not a one size fits all affair.

 

[GreatUniter]

Actual 'street' assaults on women aren't that common, however assaults and rapes by people known to the victims are scarily common. 90% of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, these rapes happen in places where the victim can often feel safe, the workplace, home etc. Any self defence training has to be appropriate not a one size fits all affair.

Not here. Not in the Balkans where street assaults are common (but not everywhere). The percentages that a woman can be raped or assaulted from someone that is a stranger to her are the same as the percentages that she can be raped home (let's say 50-50).

 

[hoshin1600]

Actual 'street' assaults on women aren't that common, however assaults and rapes by people known to the victims are scarily common. 90% of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, these rapes happen in places where the victim can often feel safe, the workplace, home etc. Any self defence training has to be appropriate not a one size fits all affair.

Hey Tez good to see your still lurking.
do you have any links for that statistic. i am assuming that is for the UK. i was just reading a report (cant remember for what location it was for, im at work and cant reference it now)
but this report said 80% knew the attacker but that was for all ages including children at about 5%. out of that 80% ,...30% of the attackers were family members.
what this tells me is that 70% of those attackers are not family members. there is a high percentage of date rape for college students and there may be a high rate of victims that knew there attacker but only casually.

we need to be cautious about how we apply statistics and not create a narrative born out of partial facts because it meets a confirmation bias.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Not here. Not in the Balkans where street assaults are common (but not everywhere). The percentages that a woman can be raped or assaulted from someone that is a stranger to her are the same as the percentages that she can be raped home (let's say 50-50).

I would have to go back and check, but when I was growing up in Ukraine, street assaults were pretty common too. The stats might have changed since then, but there are bound to be some dramatic differences in the assault by stranger vs. assault by someone you know numbers between first, second, and third world, as well as between individual regions and countries.

 

[AngryHobbit]

Hey, look at that - not super-comprehensive, and some of the stats are old, but not a bad way to get a feel for crime situation by country. Here's a good one - less than 40% of people in Ukraine felt safe walking home at night in 2014.

Ukraine Crime Facts & Stats

 

[JR 137]

Hey Tez good to see your still lurking.
do you have any links for that statistic. i am assuming that is for the UK. i was just reading a report (cant remember for what location it was for, im at work and cant reference it now)
but this report said 80% knew the attacker but that was for all ages including children at about 5%. out of that 80% ,...30% of the attackers were family members.
what this tells me is that 70% of those attackers are not family members. there is a high percentage of date rape for college students and there may be a high rate of victims that knew there attacker but only casually.

we need to be cautious about how we apply statistics and not create a narrative born out of partial facts because it meets a confirmation bias.

Exactly. “Known assailant” needs to be broken down further to get a good understanding. “Known assailant” could range from someone you recognize without knowing their name to an immediate family member. Knowing the assailant says something, but not very much. There should be some sort of scale IMO, although that wouldn’t be very easy.

And then to complicate that known assailant stat even further, was it physically forceful or was it psychologically (for lack of a better word) forceful, as in sleep with someone to save a career, blackmail, etc.?

 

[Buka]

Actual 'street' assaults on women aren't that common, however assaults and rapes by people known to the victims are scarily common. 90% of rapes are committed by someone known to the victim, these rapes happen in places where the victim can often feel safe, the workplace, home etc. Any self defence training has to be appropriate not a one size fits all affair.

Tez! Nice to see you.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Exactly. “Known assailant” needs to be broken down further to get a good understanding. “Known assailant” could range from someone you recognize without knowing their name to an immediate family member. Knowing the assailant says something, but not very much. There should be some sort of scale IMO, although that wouldn’t be very easy.

And then to complicate that known assailant stat even further, was it physically forceful or was it psychologically (for lack of a better word) forceful, as in sleep with someone to save a career, blackmail, etc.?

I've looked a few times for some differentiation in the statistics, and haven't found it (doesn't mean it's not available). There's a huge difference between a family member or even hang-out friend, versus the guy who you've bought a latte from a few times. Both are "known" to the victim.

 

[Tez3]

Hey Tez good to see your still lurking.
do you have any links for that statistic. i am assuming that is for the UK. i was just reading a report (cant remember for what location it was for, im at work and cant reference it now)
but this report said 80% knew the attacker but that was for all ages including children at about 5%. out of that 80% ,...30% of the attackers were family members.
what this tells me is that 70% of those attackers are not family members. there is a high percentage of date rape for college students and there may be a high rate of victims that knew there attacker but only casually.

we need to be cautious about how we apply statistics and not create a narrative born out of partial facts because it meets a confirmation bias.

I have Home Office statistics and American crime statistics as well as others from around the world. They are easy to find online. I also have my experience with dealing with such cases. I have worked in the Balkans and I know more about rape there than anyone should have to know, the same with Afghan.

To be honest there is no difference between someone you've only known for a little while and someone you've known for a while. they aren't strangers which is the point. There's no degrees of 'stranger' or non stranger. It doesn't need to be broken down, it's someone you thought you didn't need to be defensive with.

The rape figures for different countries won't be dramatically different at all, human nature being what it is. What is dramatically different is how countries deal with rape, in some the victims are blamed, in some it's actually legal, in others usually ones where there's war/civil war/unrest it's encouraged as a form of terror or control.

We do not need to break down how well the victims know their attackers because as far as self defence is concerned it's irrelevant. What needs to be 'broken down' is the type of self defence one needs when one is taken off guard and attacked by someone as opposed to the type of self defence one needs when attacked either randomly or targeted when you should be on your guard.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I have Home Office statistics and American crime statistics as well as others from around the world. They are easy to find online. I also have my experience with dealing with such cases. I have worked in the Balkans and I know more about rape there than anyone should have to know, the same with Afghan.

To be honest there is no difference between someone you've only known for a little while and someone you've known for a while. they aren't strangers which is the point. There's no degrees of 'stranger' or non stranger. It doesn't need to be broken down, it's someone you thought you didn't need to be defensive with.

The rape figures for different countries won't be dramatically different at all, human nature being what it is. What is dramatically different is how countries deal with rape, in some the victims are blamed, in some it's actually legal, in others usually ones where there's war/civil war/unrest it's encouraged as a form of terror or control.

We do not need to break down how well the victims know their attackers because as far as self defence is concerned it's irrelevant. What needs to be 'broken down' is the type of self defence one needs when one is taken off guard and attacked by someone as opposed to the type of self defence one needs when attacked either randomly or targeted when you should be on your guard.

There definitely are differences between someone you recognize (have bought coffee from them a couple of times) and someone you actually know. The latter is part "known", but part "stranger". You'd be uneasy if they showed up on your doorstep unannounced, for starters, and unlikely to trust them implicitly.

 

[drop bear]

There definitely are differences between someone you recognize (have bought coffee from them a couple of times) and someone you actually know. The latter is part "known", but part "stranger". You'd be uneasy if they showed up on your doorstep unannounced, for starters, and unlikely to trust them implicitly.

I think tactically there would be some red flag points.

Same reason I dont meet people in back car parks.

The fishing trip became a bit notorious for a while there in Melbourne.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I think tactically there would be some red flag points.

Same reason I dont meet people in back car parks.

The fishing trip became a bit notorious for a while there in Melbourne.

Agreed. A different story if a mate asks you do something (help grab something out of his car, etc.) and a near-stranger.

 

[Tez3]

There definitely are differences between someone you recognize (have bought coffee from them a couple of times) and someone you actually know. The latter is part "known", but part "stranger". You'd be uneasy if they showed up on your doorstep unannounced, for starters, and unlikely to trust them implicitly.

That's not the point though, you would be on your guard if they turned up at your house, however you wouldn't be if it was in a neutral place ie the coffee shop. You wouldn't be on your guard against a bloke who worked in the same office as you in that office for instance.

 

[hoshin1600]

To be honest there is no difference between someone you've only known for a little while and someone you've known for a while. they aren't strangers which is the point. There's no degrees of 'stranger' or non stranger. It doesn't need to be broken down, it's someone you thought you didn't need to be defensive with.

"So what your saying is.." we shouldn't let things like facts and statistics get in the way of us having our opinions dictated to us.

When you say it doest matter.....well that's were we disagree. Why doesn’t it matter? What matters is going to be dependent upon the criteria set by how we are going to use the information.

"So when you say..it doesn't matter...what your saying is" rape culture. Nothing matters beyond that.

But here is the reality, we are martial artists. On this Web sight we have been constantly bombarded with the message that what we do doesn't work for instances of rape. And yet there has never been a message of WHAT DOES WORK. Earlier I posted stats about women who fought back and stopped the rape. Clearly if there are good statistics on it , the notion that MA doesn’t work is not entirely true. It does work and it does apply. Some of the time. To disregard this segment is entirely is detrimental to the women who may need it.
I guess we should all just accept rape culture and crawl back into our holes.

 

[hoshin1600]

Were has the bold part been stated? Please link it, I haven't seen it.

And I teach people to fight and I also teach them to fight back.

Both things are not only technical but also mentally, and it works in alot of situations

I'm sorry Malos. I don't understand. what "bold" part are you talking about? I didn't put any of my statement in bold. Are you referring to the bold sentence in Tez's comment?

 

[hoshin1600]

It was that line that i made bold in the quote.....

ok i see. i didnt expand the quote link.
i am referring specifically to a history of posts made here at MT. it has been a running narrative here over the years.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

That's not the point though, you would be on your guard if they turned up at your house, however you wouldn't be if it was in a neutral place ie the coffee shop. You wouldn't be on your guard against a bloke who worked in the same office as you in that office for instance.

Agreed. But that's part of my point. The statistics don't actually give us a good clarity on what the situations are. I suspect there are relatively few instances of women assaulted in the workplace of the perpetrator (that coffee shop), and relatively more instances of those "known" strangers assaulting them away from there, where they could probably cause alarm bells of some sort.

 

[hoshin1600]

as i think about this Known Vs unknown concept it appears to me that this metric "doesnt matter".
as martial artists it has very little relevance whether the victim knew their attacker or not. what does matter is whether of not it was deceptive, grooming, coercion and if it has an actual component of violence. MA is only designed to address violence. as such we can only educate on this basis.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

It was that line that i made bold in the quote.....

Hoshin is expressing his frustration about an approach to posting here (this site, not this thread). When the topic of women's SD or sexual assault comes up, we often get a series of posts about what's not effective about MA training. Most of us acknowledge MA training isn't going to cover everything - we'd love to hear at least some conceptual suggestions about what we could consider adding. I don't have the expertise to construct an answer to that question, but I believe some of those who post complaints about MA for women do actually have some of that expertise. I'd love to learn from them - and I think that's what Hoshin is saying, too.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

as i think about this Known Vs unknown concept it appears to me that this metric "doesnt matter".
as martial artists it has very little relevance whether the victim knew their attacker or not. what does matter is whether of not it was deceptive, grooming, coercion and if it has an actual component of violence. MA is only designed to address violence. as such we can only educate on this basis.

It does still matter from a psychological perspective. I'll even ignore the post-incident trauma here, and just consider the tendency toward denial. If someone you trust (known well) starts to do something "off", we tend to dismiss it at first as us misunderstanding their intention. Often, that is subconscious, so all the situational awareness-ness is irrelevant to that state of mind. That means any actual physical defense is likely to start much later, if at all. The shock of betrayal can actually make it more difficult to respond. And in a state of cognitive dissonance (holding a belief of one thing, while strong evidence of the contrary is presented), we are slower to respond and can more easily freeze up. That cognitive dissonance can also lead to an odd reluctance to cause harm to someone who is causing you harm.

I agree with the basic premise of your post, tempered by this understanding. If I had to draw it out, it wouldn't be a continuum (known to unknown) or a set of categories (coersion, violence, deception). It would be a grid of both.