Winning - Important or Irrelevant?

[Champ-Pain]

I'm talking about using the ignore feature on the forum. It will disable his posts from your view.

Anyways, lets try to return to the topic.

DONE! That was easy enough.

 

[Cyriacus]

Now you get to Enjoy the really fun part:
Where You click into a Thread, see that Hes said something, then find Yourself taking the Time to hit the Display Post Button to quickly see what He said...


Seriously though, this Thread has gone on way longer than it should.
Ill direct that Statement to pretty much everybody.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:

If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?

 

[Chris Parker]

Ah, it's a pity you're ignoring me, Angel, as I actually have an answer for you that you might appreciate (even after the veiled threat against me..."Guess who else lives in Australia?" And you're ignoring me? Classy...).

Winning is important from a sporting point of view. There's no denying that it is, in fact, it's something I've stated in my answers to you. But, and here's where you get to strap in and see if you can finally, after 6 pages, get what I've been saying, competitive endeavours are not the only expression of martial arts. And it's in these non-competitive ones that winning isn't important. If you can't see anything other than competition, this is a boring conversation ("Hey do you like to win when you compete?" "Yeah, I do." "Hey, me too". Hmm), so you may want to consider that, for those for whom winning isn't important, neither is competitive martial arts.

Seriously, I hope you do see this, and finally understand that all I've been talking about is an approach to martial arts that is far from what you know, and I've been trying to give you an insight into other facets of this world. I've never said that winning isn't important, or that it's irrelevant, other than it being irrelevant to me, based on the way I train, and the reasons I train. I've tried to explain that training to you, and those reasons to you, and you have taken my trying to explain to you, and your constant refusal to listen as my not being "positive" towards your posts. There was nothing positive to say about you constantly misreading and getting it wrong.

Then again, if you don't see this, I might just go ahead and report the threat you made. Hmm, sounds like a good idea anyway.

 

[Tez3]

Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:

If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?[/QUOTE]

For the money!

 

[Jenna]

Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:

If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?

Why do people do these things? Because people, martial artists and athletes like to compete. There is nothing wrong with that. People like to win. It is our nature. And that is quite ok.

However...

1. If winning becomes more important than the joys of competition then that is a recipe for horribly spoilt kids and bad sportsmanship in adults who feel they either DESERVE to win or throw a tantrum if they do not.

2. When winning further becomes SO important that competitors must CHEAT with drugs and other frauds then that indicates a far deeper (probably familial) psychological issue that can NEVER be addressed by merely winning a competiton. Those people are chasing a win like junkies chase their dragons. Never will they achieve what will really satisfy them. Even if they score a win.

Again, is winning important? It depends upon how much weight you give it in your competitive priorities.

I will say one thing, I would not wish to even bother competing against someone that had a mindset of winning regardless of how well they compete. I would rather just let them have the win and be spared either their feigned magnanimity were they to beat me, or their poor sportsmanship were they to be beaten.

I am not a competitor in my MA anyway so this is pure speculation.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Cyriacus: I can almost guarantee I will NOT hit the display button, in this case. I appreciate your opinion and I tend to agree that it's gone on long enough... but I'd like someone, anyone to answer one question before this thread is locked/closed:

If winning is irrelevant, then why do so many athletes train, practice and sacrifice so much, so hard and so regularly, in order to do so... sweating, bleeding and on occation crying, due to pain, exhaustion and injury, some even cheating, doping and/or using performance enhansement drugs, in order to win at whatever sport they participate in?[/QUOTE]

For the money!

Really? How about the amateur athletes who don't get paid?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Because "winning" is seen as "success" and everyone wants to be a success.
Especially people whose normal lives are overall boring and mundane.

Can't be a CEO, but can be a championship golfer.
Can't be the NFL QB, but can be the local checkers champ.
Can't be Bill Gates, but can be the regional cage fight champ.

It's a way of feeling good about yourself.
I enter my photos in competitions. I sometimes win, it feels good.

Some people compete because they like the feel of winning. Some just like the competition. For some it's about medals and awards and applause, for others it's personal, an internal 'gut check' if you will.

I used to enter competitions not so much as to win, but to see how well I stacked up against others. Losing the fight (especially when my opponent was years ahead of me) was less important than how well I did during the fight.

Each person enters a competition for different reasons.
Personally, the ones who have to cheat to win are chasing the wrong goal in my view, but that's because I'm more about the battle than the victory.



On another topic, a reminder: Threats, real or perceived are grounds for an immediate ban. This matter is being reviewed by staff.

 

[Champ-Pain]

Guess who else lives in Australia... maybe I'll get lucky.

If this is considered a threat by you or anyone else in the planet - I'll take the ban, immediately. Who am I even threatning, I'd like to know?

I think someone is just very insecure about themself and is crying over spilled milk, calling on you and others to clean up the mess he can't clean up by himself.

 

[Cyriacus]

If this is considered a threat by you or anyone else in the planet - I'll take the ban, immediately. Who am I even threatning, I'd like to know?

I think someone is just very insecure about themself and is crying over spilled milk, calling on you and others to clean up the mess he can't clean up by himself.

I told You You'd Read a Reply eventually





Im just going to try and Re-Align this Topic now, since this is turning into a big Circle of Criticism.

What have We Learnt?
1: It is not Necessary to Everyone to Compete.
2: If You do Compete, it can be for more Reasons than just Winning/Medals/Etc.
3: Different People Compete for Different Reasons which May or May Not make sense to Others. And some Train Insanely Hard for No Reason other than that they Choose to, and not for Medals. Others are the Opposite.
4: Training to use Swords and such can Psychologically Benefit You from a Combative (Im sure theres a better word) Perspective.
5: If You Ignore someone, Youll Inevitably Read one of their Posts eventually.
6: Probably some other stuff ive forgotten.

 

[Cyriacus]

You know what, I'm a little bored. So I figure I'll throw something different in here....

Considering you (JC) have decided to post this in the "General Martial Arts" section, rather than the "Competitive Arts" section, I'm going to say that, in regards to competition and sport, sure, winning is the aim and therefore important (note: not all-important, but it is still what you strive towards... whether than means winning each time, or just improving and getting closer to the elusive win, the aim is to get to the top there, it's really how they're set up), however in martial arts, absolutely not. Martial arts have nothing to do with competition, winning, losing etc are not concepts that have any real place in their context.

I'll see if I can explain where I'm coming from here.

I have a background in a form of Karate that was developed specifically to win tournaments, as well as a form of TKD, which focused on a more competitive training approach; I've won and lost tournaments. And none of it has anything to do with what martial arts actually are. All they are, really, is the application of technical methods taken from martial arts in a competitive environment.

One big difference is in the mind set. It's not uncommon to hear, in competitive forms, that you need that "killer instinct", and that sounds all martial art-y, doesn't it? After all, martial arts are methods of violence and killing, aren't they? So you could hardly have a martial art without this "killer instinct", could you? Actually, yes. In fact, a "killer instinct" approach takes you away from a martial approach. It is limited, as it is only designed for a single approach, it is overly aggressive to the detriment of other options, and removes the other legitimate strategic approaches that any martial, or military methods require.

What's actually needed, when dealing more with the older, traditional martial arts, is not a "killer instinct", it's a "killer intention". Essentially, I don't give a damn about winning or losing, I care about killing you. My only intention is to kill you. My aim revolves around killing you. The only important thing is, you guessed it, killing you. When I come in as an attacker in my training, I am aiming to kill my partner (with control, but without remorse or concern for them on an emotional level that way). When I am the "defending" partner, I aim to kill my partner in the same way.

"Winning" is thoroughly irrelevant if discussing martial arts. And yes, I know the context that you have been using it in, but as we are in the General section, perhaps a broader understanding could help you here.

Chris Parkers Original Reply.
Assuming I understand Correctly, this is saying, that Martial Arts =/= Competitions. But Martial Artists can Compete in Martial Arts Competitions. But, some Places Teach the Competition Side as being more Important than the Martial Arts side. And that that Comment is Justified since this is the General Martial Arts Forum Section, and not the Competitive Arts Section.

I feel this is probably the best place to Start from, for any Future Discussion. As it is, youve succumbed to a Game of Counterpointing each other into Counterpoints.

 

[Champ-Pain]

I told You You'd Read a Reply eventually
If You Ignore someone, Youll Inevitably Read one of their Posts eventually.

Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.

 

[Chris Parker]

Agreed other than the "counter point to counter point" part. There really weren't any counterpoints, especially not put forward from Angel, what there was was Angel seizing on the idea of "train to kill", and myself explaining that it was not to go out and actually kill people (not training for practical purposes), to which Angel would reply something to the effect of "I get that, but it's not practical, is it?" I'd respond that that wasn't the point, the practicality wasn't in the techniques, and he'd respond "I get that, but it's not practical, is it?" I'd explain that he's looking at it from the wrong angle, and he'd say "It's not like you have a sword with you, I mean, it's not practical, is it?". I'd explain, again, that that wasn't the point, and he'd say "I get that, but it's not practical, is it? I have a gun."... and so on and so on. Not what I'd call counterpoint and counterpoint, more brick wall and head. Sadly, I was the head.

 

[Tez3]

Really? How about the amateur athletes who don't get paid?

The pay off for them is satisfaction, a sense of achievement, self esteem etc. No one does this and doesn't get something back. We wouldn't do it if it were all bad.

 

[Tez3]

Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.

The paranoia worm strikes again! :tantrum:

 

[jks9199]

In hopes of repairing this train wreck...

Personal shots are against the rules. Threats, even if veiled or indirect, are against the rules. A post that's intended to simply bother, harass, or any someone is also against the rules. If what you're about to say feels like it might be interpreted as a shot or threat -- DON'T POST IT. One thing I've found that can be very helpful is to write your post, and stop. Read it again. Make sure it says what you want it to say before you hit "Post Reply."

There will be no more warnings. Further problems will be dealt with.

In short:

ATTENTION ALL USERS:

Please keep the conversation polite and respectful. Avoid personal shots; attack the message, not the messenger.

jks9199
Super Moderator

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.

To do what you suggest would require real-time monitoring at a level this forum software simply does not have, and a timing on par with a military operation. The only people here who has the power to do manually reverse, then reimpliment a block is me and you, and I've been scanning in model releases most of the morning. Unless there is a bug in the software I'm unaware of that's screwing up the ignore feature. But the only people not blockable are moderators.

 

[shesulsa]

Especially if that certain someone you are trying to ignore has the power, or knows someone on MT who has the power to reverse the process I took in hitting the ignore button, just for a few moments, just long enough to have me see it, and then hit it to block his posts, once again. I know for a fact, I didn't hit the view button, yet it was very viewable to me.

Hm ... try this: make sure you have the user blocked. Log off, clear your browser cache and temp memory, etcetera, and reboot your device. If you are still having trouble blocking a user who is not on staff (i.e. Moderator, Senior Moderator, Super Moderator, Assistant Administrator or Administator), report the problem to Bob Hubbard - problems like that *might* be something else.

 

[jasonbrinn]

I break it down as follows;

If it is a sport - You should want and try to win. To do anything else is dishonest and why compete in the first place? Plus winning and seeking to win is the only thing that can progress the sport to higher levels.

If it is an art - the concept is thrown out because it isn't relative - I just want to learn.

If it is self-defense - I want to live (if that is what you call winning then baby sign me up!).

I would bet that most people that like to "win" have assigned the values of improving and doing "good" to the act. People that don't care for winning per se probably have assigned the value to other things. As long as the assignment of the value set that motivates you is positive and not harmful to others - to each their own!

 

[MJS]

I only made a few posts in this thread, but after reading a bit more, something else came to mind. Many times, I think that its engrained in the minds of people that winning is "THE" only option. Anything less is failure. If you fail, you suck. Well, fact is, people fail all the time. The best of the best can fail. IMO, nothing is 100%. If people fail, they go into some great depression.

I used to see this all the time in HS sports and even in the martial arts. You'd swear some of these people were playing for a million bucks, with the way they'd act. Parents on the sidelines, yelling at the kids. Nice to make your kid feel like **** if Godforbid **GASP*** they lose!

Now, dont mistake this for me saying that winning isn't important. Sure, it is. But also understand that you can't always be a winner.