Wing Chun Boxing

[LFJ]

----With that Tan you don't have to bring in a lot of conceptual twists and turns to justify it being a punch.

You just have to not understand the concept in the first place. Then it easily becomes whatever you want!

With the Tan, you simply close your hand into a fist and you can feel that it is a valid punch. Same thing with the Bong. No great stretch of imagination needed!

If you don't understand the concepts, it's just a matter of putting a fist on the end.

The energies will be entirely different, but if you didn't know that, it doesn't take any conceptual twist. Great!

And the "bouncing punch" from most Ip Man WCK versions of the Chum Kiu form is essentially that....a Tan Sau as a punch.

There's a reason in all the position changes in pun-sau you never end up with taan-sau having contact on the inside of the forearm.

If you don't know the reason, then any time your palm faces upward you can call it a taan-sau, despite it having nothing to do with the hand, and possibly being the exact opposite in concept.

Same with the Bong being an overhand punch. Many Ip Man WCK versions of Biu Jee have this punch in the form without going to conceptual convolutions to justify it.

That "punch" is not a bong-sau, and the only way to turn bong-sau into an overhand punch is to completely castrate the concept and elbow use from it, as you've done to taan.

 

[LFJ]

That is NOT what "pure WSLVT" looks like, despite what LFJ may say!

Having no knowledge or experience of WSLVT whatsoever, it's best you not arrogantly tell its practitioners what it is and isn't.

Just do a youtube search for "Phillip Bayer Ving Tsun" and you will find a plethora of Chi Sau videos. That is more representative of what "pure" WSLVT looks like!

Wrong.

Chi-sau is not sparring or fighting.

You can also do a youtube search for "David Petersen Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid representation that LFJ does not endorse. Or "Gary Lamb Ving Tsun" and see another perfectly valid version that LFJ does not endorse.

This old lie again...

They are just different than what I do, but I'd send people to either one of them before any WC you're talking about!

 

[LFJ]

My understanding is Ip Man's wing chun changed over the years as his age progressed. The older he got the softer it became because he did not have the same strength. Hence the changes and differences in the way his students learned through the years.

This directly contradicts the idea of him having taught to the individual strengths and weaknesses of each student.

Why would he teach strong youth to fight like a frail elderly man just because he got older and weaker?

IMO, since WC is conceptual it should be a bit different for everyone but the core concepts would remain.

Right. It can accommodate all physical conditions (within reason) without fundamental changes.

That's why it would not make sense for YM to completely change the way he taught to where at different "stages" he was teaching contradictory concepts and understandings of the same material, and teaching young guys to fight like elderly men.

 

[karatejj]

You just have to not understand the concept in the first place. Then it easily becomes whatever you want!



If you don't understand the concepts, it's just a matter of putting a fist on the end.

The energies will be entirely different, but if you didn't know that, it doesn't take any conceptual twist. Great!



There's a reason in all the position changes in pun-sau you never end up with taan-sau having contact on the inside of the forearm.

If you don't know the reason, then any time your palm faces upward you can call it a taan-sau, despite it having nothing to do with the hand, and possibly being the exact opposite in concept.



That "punch" is not a bong-sau, and the only way to turn bong-sau into an overhand punch is to completely castrate the concept and elbow use from it, as you've done to taan.

Great info on you're system man!!

 

[karatejj]

Ok. Don't take my word for it. Check it out yourself as I suggested. Because you aren't going to get a good answer from LFJ. And even Sean didn't claim that portion was "pure WSLVT", and those are his students!

I don't think he agree with you either man! He's a guy that likes to keep the peace, I like that.

Look, why you're argue about this stuff all the time man, its a waste of you're time! You have better things to offer, like teh wing chun boxing project!!

 

[KPM]

You just have to not understand the concept in the first place. Then it easily becomes whatever you want!



If you don't understand the concepts, it's just a matter of putting a fist on the end.

The energies will be entirely different, but if you didn't know that, it doesn't take any conceptual twist. Great!



There's a reason in all the position changes in pun-sau you never end up with taan-sau having contact on the inside of the forearm.

If you don't know the reason, then any time your palm faces upward you can call it a taan-sau, despite it having nothing to do with the hand, and possibly being the exact opposite in concept.



That "punch" is not a bong-sau, and the only way to turn bong-sau into an overhand punch is to completely castrate the concept and elbow use from it, as you've done to taan.

Everything you wrote above demonstrates a rather narrow and dogmatic view of wing chun. Which is very ironic given that you can see a high cover in the sweeping motion in Biu Jee, but you can't see a punch in a Tan Sau!

 

[KPM]

Having no knowledge or experience of WSLVT whatsoever, it's best you not arrogantly tell its practitioners what it is and isn't.



Wrong.

Chi-sau is not sparring or fighting.



This old lie again...

They are just different than what I do, but I'd send people to either one of them before any WC you're talking about!

 

[KPM]

Great info on you're system man!!

You do realize that he still didn't answer your question? I'm starting to smell a rat here.

 

[LFJ]

you can see a high cover in the sweeping motion in Biu Jee,

As has been explained to you, it need not sweep. The action and arm position is there. You just never learned far enough.

but you can't see a punch in a Tan Sau!

Not the way you do, because I understand the taan-concept punch, and that taan-sau is a pre-punch position that trains the elbow for such a punch.

What happens to the elbow during the chau-kyun in CK? It recovers center from the raised position in bong-sau, contracting inward.

You have interpreted this as a taan-sau because the palm turns up, not knowing what happens at the elbow.

Do you understand why taan-sau is never on the outside with contact on the inside of the forearm in pun-sau training? It doesn't contract inward.

Of course, you're unable to examine this because you never learned the concepts and do a big loopy punch leading with the fist. Same as your bong-sau overhand punch. It's fist-led.

You have no elbow concept in your WC at all. So, it's easy to make up whatever you want without conceptual twists. Because you have no concepts to twist, only to make up.

 

[wckf92]

chau-kyun

What does this translate to?

 

[wckf92]

What happens to the elbow during the chau-kyun in CK? It recovers center from the raised position in bong-sau, contracting inward.

Do you understand why taan-sau is never on the outside with contact on the inside of the forearm in pun-sau training? It doesn't contract inward.

Hi LFJ.
Not sure what chau-kyun means...but both of these mention 'contracting inward'(?) Can you please explain? Thx.

 

[LFJ]

Hi LFJ.
Not sure what chau-kyun means...but both of these mention 'contracting inward'(?) Can you please explain? Thx.

Dictionary definition gives 'to whip; thrash; flog'.

Contracting inward means the elbow is brought to the center.

 

[karatejj]

You do realize that he still didn't answer your question? I'm starting to smell a rat here.

Hey man, you're right!!

Im smelling a rat here too..WTF, feel like I been conned!!

 

[karatejj]

Dictionary definition gives 'to whip; thrash; flog'.

Contracting inward means the elbow is brought to the center.

Ok, enough of the dodging. Why the first action??

Make me understand ur system

 

[karatejj]

You do realize that he still didn't answer your question? I'm starting to smell a rat here.

Actually dude, you not answer it either!!!

Both of u should answer if you post on teh thread

 

[LFJ]

Ok, enough of the dodging. Why the first action??

Wrong thread.

 

[Martial D]

ROFL

This dude HAS to be trolling. Nobody is that daft.

 

[karatejj]

ROFL

This dude HAS to be trolling. Nobody is that daft.

Dude that is abuse. I can't help I not sharpest tool. But I know gr8 WC when I see it, anf I see it here with KPM!! Now I just try to find who else got teh real stuff

 

[drop bear]

As has been explained to you, it need not sweep. The action and arm position is there. You just never learned far enough.



Not the way you do, because I understand the taan-concept punch, and that taan-sau is a pre-punch position that trains the elbow for such a punch.

What happens to the elbow during the chau-kyun in CK? It recovers center from the raised position in bong-sau, contracting inward.

You have interpreted this as a taan-sau because the palm turns up, not knowing what happens at the elbow.

Do you understand why taan-sau is never on the outside with contact on the inside of the forearm in pun-sau training? It doesn't contract inward.

Of course, you're unable to examine this because you never learned the concepts and do a big loopy punch leading with the fist. Same as your bong-sau overhand punch. It's fist-led.

You have no elbow concept in your WC at all. So, it's easy to make up whatever you want without conceptual twists. Because you have no concepts to twist, only to make up.

You are describing your styles limitations. Which don't apply to what KPM is doing.

That is the point of this thread is KFM has more flexibility to change or make up concepts.

It is the difference between your martial arts and someone else's.

You would have to show why your concepts are functional before you can discount someone else's.

 

[drop bear]

Dude that is abuse. I can't help I not sharpest tool. But I know gr8 WC when I see it, anf I see it here with KPM!! Now I just try to find who else got teh real stuff

You really don't know great wing chun when you see it. Because you almost never see it function.