Wing Chun applications in MMA or the street

[Nobody Important]

The problem with Alan Orr's team is that the VT conceptual base is not there.

This is because no one can agree on what exactly is the base of Wing Chun. Everyone has their own interpretation, as evidenced by the many arguments on internet forums about what is correct & what isn't. IMO Allen Orr is using loose (some will say loosely interpretated) concepts of WC principles to augment his developed MMA style. Does this make it WC or is it simply implementation of WC strategy augmented by some key techniques? It's all a matter of one's perspective. Personally I could care less about others beliefs as long as they don't try to force them upon me.

 

[Juany118]

This is because no one can agree on what exactly is the base of Wing Chun. Everyone has their own interpretation, as evidenced by the many arguments on internet forums about what is correct & what isn't. IMO Allen Orr is using loose (some will say loosely interpretated) concepts of WC principles to augment his developed MMA style. Does this make it WC or is it simply implementation of WC strategy augmented by some key techniques? It's all a matter of one's perspective. Personally I could care less about others beliefs as long as they don't try to force them upon me.

Gosh I wish other people had the patience to read the other thread, it is basically emblematic of society at large. Some people say "it's a concept" and use the dictionary definition, an abstract idea with a foundation. Others say it's a concept BUT if a particular technique isn't used in particular manner they lose their minds and the same dynamic rose here.

 

[Steve]

Gosh I wish other people had the patience to read the other thread, it is basically emblematic of society at large. Some people say "it's a concept" and use the dictionary definition, an abstract idea with a foundation. Others say it's a concept BUT if a particular technique isn't used in particular manner they lose their minds and the same dynamic rose here.

No problem, as long as they don't move the goal post.

 

[Juany118]

No problem, as long as they don't move the goal post.

gotta admit. made me chuckle.

 

[anerlich]

Personally, I can only see some useful parallels between WC and grappling arts after spending considerable time training both.

When I took up BJJ, I tried to relate everything back to Wing Chun, which maybe helped a little up to my first couple of stripes on my white belt. After that, trying to see everything in BJJ through Wing Chun coloured glasses didn't help any more, it just got in the way.

I get a few "oh, yeah, that's like section X in SLT" moments, but I see these as like curiosities only someone with a similar background as me could appreciate. And they have little if any practical use in becoming a better grappler. Opinions vary, but this is mine.

The search for a unified theory of fighting is a fool's quest IMO.

I don't have a problem with Alan's diction. My own tones are not dulcet by any stretch. Are yours?

I've been reading Hendrik Santo's posts on various topics for about twenty years and can't see all the force flow stuff having any more substance than anything else he has written. I've trained hard with some very skilled people with proven track records in WC, BJJ and MMA and can't see that any of this secret handshake stuff is going to help me improve anything.

 

[Juany118]

Personally, I can only see some useful parallels between WC and grappling arts after spending considerable time training both.

When I took up BJJ, I tried to relate everything back to Wing Chun, which maybe helped a little up to my first couple of stripes on my white belt. After that, trying to see everything in BJJ through Wing Chun coloured glasses didn't help any more, it just got in the way.

I get a few "oh, yeah, that's like section X in SLT" moments, but I see these as like curiosities only someone with a similar background as me could appreciate. And they have little if any practical use in becoming a better grappler. Opinions vary, but this is mine.

The search for a unified theory of fighting is a fool's quest IMO.

I don't have a problem with Alan's diction. My own tones are not dulcet by any stretch. Are yours?

I've been reading Hendrik Santo's posts on various topics for about twenty years and can't see all the force flow stuff having any more substance than anything else he has written. I've trained hard with some very skilled people with proven track records in WC, BJJ and MMA and can't see that any of this secret handshake stuff is going to help me improve anything.

I think the first sentence illustrates the issue though. Most of the conversation regarding similarities is regarding centerline theory and the execution of striking principles. The only time I think one would be able to relate WC principles to grappling arts, with any consistency at least, would be say in take downs that involve a strike like transfer of energy.

 

[Juany118]

I think the first sentence illustrates the issue though. Most of the conversation regarding similarities is regarding centerline theory and the execution of striking principles. The only time I think one would be able to relate WC principles to grappling arts, with any consistency at least, would be say in take downs that involve a strike like transfer of energy.

Lat edit @anerlich : I also think that WC is mentioned repeatedly in the video something else is missed. The idea of centerline theory, as it is explained and focused on in WC, may seem unique but many of the applications aren't. Other arts use punches that are similar to the WC punch (a straight punch, elbow down, knuckles verticals) they just also use other punches as well. Other arts use knife hands, finger thrusts, etc, they just use different nomenclature. I think some of what's going on here is what has always gone on in MMA. A practitioner is applying the techniques, and nomenclature, of an art he knows to MMA but the nomenclature is creating points of conflict because of the following (not this is striking v striking and grappling v grappling)

1. If your point of reference is say Kick Boxing, Karate etc. you may see a technique only in the light of that point of reference and say "oh that's not WC that's kick boxing.
--- if your only point of reference to the other art, in this case WC, is the stances used in training or in kung Fu movies, it can make this denial even more firm.
2. Some people simply have a prejudice against particular arts and this exacerbates point 1.
3. Some people have a belief in the "purity" of a traditional martial art. This concept of purity will have them say "that isn't WC" the minute the principles and applications are combined into an alternative stance, or when used in conjunction with other applications or principles.

 

[dudewingchun]

Uh, where did I change my argument?

I said in the beginning that I don't see the WC in what Orr is doing, and I still don't see the WC in what Orr is doing. My point with bringing up Machida is that I CAN see the karate elements in his fighting style, and clearly others can too, which is why a major media hub published a lengthy article about it. His karate influence is obvious to anyone watching him fight, and that is NOT the case when we talk about Orr.

Further I recognize your key points, but those points are invalidated by the examples I posted. You can't say that in the end everything looks alike when we have very clear examples of fighters from unique MA bases looking unique at the highest level of combat sports.

That's the point.

You dont understand anything Alan is doing.

 

[Juany118]

I failed to address some points.

Uh, where did I change my argument?

I suppose it is possible you simply did not articulate your point well. First you simply said "I don't see WC, I see kick boxing." I explain how frame of reference can influence said perceptions, how a WC guy, a Karate guy and a TKD guy (or girl of course) can all see the same technique and see it as something from "their" art. You studiously ignored this point and then starting posting photos and videos of a training/Donnie Yen perfect stance, and started talking about "distinctive" features.

The fact you don't see WC in what Orr is teaching is, tbh, because you can't accept the idea that most, if not all striking arts, share more than a few techniques, they simply explain them with different terminology and FB this is likely compounded by the fact that you simply don't know enough about WC, to be able to be able to see that while you say a punch looks like kick boxing it is also consistent with WC. What you see in a Donnie Yen Movie, or with students in a training/sparring scenario bears very little resemblance (stance wise) to WC in a real fight. It is little different than the Karate stance I posted in terms of real fighting. So when you move to the "distinctive" argument it's operating on a false premise.

...I said in the beginning that I don't see the WC in what Orr is doing, and I still don't see the WC in what Orr is doing. My point with bringing up Machida is that I CAN see the karate elements in his fighting style, and clearly others can too, which is why a major media hub published a lengthy article about it. His karate influence is obvious to anyone watching him fight, and that is NOT the case when we talk about Orr.

The problem is not everything between different Martial Arts is distinctive in traditional martial arts, even the footwork that you see Machida uses in MMA is NOT distinctive to Karate. The way he stands in a semi bladed stance is actually consistent with not only WC, but kick boxing, Savate, TKD and other arts. The manner in which this stance allows him to retreat under the threat of being overwhelmed is also consistent with these arts. You miss something rather important, because you ignored this fact when I broached it before you raised Machida as an examlle, people simply attribute it to Karate because a point of reference. This point of reference was created because Machida is quite open about how he trained in Karate and integrated it into his MMA.

Further I recognize your key points, but those points are invalidated by the examples I posted.

Actually they are quite relevant if you re not walking in the door with a clearly preconceived notion written in the metaphorical stone of your mind.

You can't say that in the end everything looks alike when we have very clear examples of fighters from unique MA bases looking unique at the highest level of combat sports.

The problem is that the things you are noting as "unique" aren't really. As I said Machida, just as an example, is seen as performing Karate because he studies Karate and says it's Karate but other martial artists would not see something alien to them in what he does.

Wasn't karate one of your "conceptual MAs" as well? Then how do you explain Machida looking like a distinct fighter while utilizing a "conceptual MA"? You spent several posts trying to peg Machida as looking similar to other MMA fighters,

First indeed it is. The best way I have ever seen Bukai described has been...

"The first, kihon bunkai, is basic. Everybody does the movement exactly the same way. It’s like learning kata. The second is oyo bunkai. It refers to varying the movement according to your body size. The third, renzoku bunkai, entails a continuous action whereby you do one technique, then your opponent executes a different one. It’s almost like fighting. It’s a gradual progression, almost a free exercise, but it’s not sparring. After this you then move to sparring and then to actual fighting. The first four steps are simply the training necessary to prepare you for the reality of the last."

That said I NEVER said that Machida looked like other MMA fighters. That is you projecting because you are routinely focused, quite myopically, on MMA. What I said is that traditional martial arts practitioners can look at different fighters performing different techniques and, without clear statements from the fighter saying "I study Karate" al la Machida, "...Muay Thai" al la Carano or "...Judo" al la Rousey, they will see particular techniques from their frame of reference(s). Just as a few brief and hardly expansive examples, the Judoka and the Daito-Jujutsu practitioner can see the same take down, a WC practitioner Kick Boxer can see the same punch, the Karate and TKD practitioner can see the same kick. If they are all ignorant of the particular fighters frame of reference, they can identify the technique as being consistent with their personal frame reference and none of them would be wrong.

The fact that you can't see this and are instead fixated on appearance, followed by explicit statements of the fighter involved, says a lot more about your understanding of Martial Arts than anything else.

 

[Nobody Important]

Attention all residents of Wonderland! Alice is approaching the rabbit hole followed by the Queen of Hearts, Cheshire Cat & The Mad Hatter. Enter at your own risk.

 

[dudewingchun]

You guys do not understand how CSL wing chun works at all so how can you say we do not use CSL wing chun in MMA. So many people can talk yet noone here can even post a video sparring to show they use wing chun in the way they are going on and on about.

 

[geezer]

You guys do not understand how CSL wing chun works at all so how can you say we do not use CSL wing chun in MMA. So many people can talk yet noone here can even post a video sparring to show they use wing chun in the way they are going on and on about.

No need to let Hanzou get your goat. He is to BJJ what LFJ and Guy B are to WSL-VT. ....namely a "true-believer". No point in arguing with people whose minds are already made up.

Significantly, the majority of people posting have had very positive things to say about Alan Orr's WC.

BTW --you wouldn't have any of your own WC sparring videos to discuss? I'd be really interested. Don't have any of myself. Which is just as well. Really!

 

[Nobody Important]

Wing Chun has a stigma attached to it. When it's principles & concepts have been changed to the point of generic relativity, and techniques, as well as methodology, from other arts are incorporated, is it still Wing Chun? Or is it something new based upon an idea of personal interpretation? For Wing Chun to be classified as Wing Chun there has to be a general consensus from the Wing Chun community at large as to what actually constitutes as Wing Chun. Personally; even though some concepts, some techniques and principles may be present. If the structural foundation and function of the art is modified beyond recognition, it's not Wing Chun anymore. It's something new inspired by Wing Chun. Breeding a horse with a donkey doesn't make a horse, no matter how similar outwardly they may appear.

 

[KPM]

^^^^ I know others disagree, but I still like the analogy of an "engine" as indicating an arts core biomechanics and way of generating power. Each art has distinctive "engine." If you start changing the engine, then you are changing the core of the art and it is something different. This is why, even though JKD has a lot of the same techniques and concepts as Wing Chun, it isn't Wing Chun because it has a different "engine" or core biomechanic.

 

[Nobody Important]

For the record I applaud what Allen Orr & Robert Chu have achieved with their CSL Wing Chun. I, personally, can clearly see some concepts & principles of Wing Chun being applied. That being said, I will hesitate to call what they do Wing Chun. On the basis that the forms they practice are really no different, mechanically from any other branch stemming from Yip Man that I see. Most of the drills are similar, but application wise, they use a completely different engine that is often contradictory to what is used in the forms. This is a case of putting a dress & lipstick on a pig and saying that it's your aunt Mabel. Though it may look like your aunt Mabel, it clearly isn't. Conceptually it's too loosely interpretated to be classified as Wing Chun, as generally accepted by the larger community. This isn't to say it isn't effective, they have proven otherwise. But there are also many other concepts from other styles incorporated. To such a degree that the structural foundation of classical Wing Chun has been severely altered. I am in no position to say if this is better or worse, but it is very evident that it is different at a fundamental level. This adaptation is no doubt a result of the environment it was fostered in. It is evolving beyond the accepted identity of Wing Chun and should be classified as a new system just as JKD is. Trying to find commonality with other arts to the degree that the concepts, principles and mechanics have to be altered to fit in order to comply, deviates too far from the core to be accepted uncontested IMO.

 

[Juany118]

For the record I applaud what Allen Orr & Robert Chu have achieved with their CSL Wing Chun. I, personally, can clearly see some concepts & principles of Wing Chun being applied. That being said, I will hesitate to call what they do Wing Chun. On the basis that the forms they practice are really no different, mechanically from any other branch stemming from Yip Man that I see. Most of the drills are similar, but application wise, they use a completely different engine that is often contradictory to what is used in the forms. This is a case of putting a dress & lipstick on a pig and saying that it's your aunt Mabel. Though it may look like your aunt Mabel, it clearly isn't. Conceptually it's too loosely interpretated to be classified as Wing Chun, as generally accepted by the larger community. This isn't to say it isn't effective, they have proven otherwise. But there are also many other concepts from other styles incorporated. To such a degree that the structural foundation of classical Wing Chun has been severely altered. I am in no position to say if this is better or worse, but it is very evident that it is different at a fundamental level. This adaptation is no doubt a result of the environment it was fostered in. It is evolving beyond the accepted identity of Wing Chun and should be classified as a new system just as JKD is. Trying to find commonality with other arts to the degree that the concepts, principles and mechanics have to be altered to fit in order to comply, deviates too far from the core to be accepted uncontested IMO.

I was thinking the JKD angle myself. Here we see Don Inosanto saying "Wing Chun is part of Jeet Kun Do. I think you have to have it, to understand Jeet Kun Do."

Now the rest of the video is iffy, because it neglects that WC is not only a close range art BUT I can excuse that because Dan's biggest influence regarding WC was Lee and Lee moved to the US when he was like 15 or something so his formal schooling under YM's school did end very early so his knowledge of the system was likely incomplete. Further evidence of this is Lee attesting that WC was largely immobile. Clearly we have A LOT of footwork.

 

[geezer]

...there has to be a general consensus from the Wing Chun community at large as to what actually constitutes as Wing Chun.

 

[Nobody Important]

You must keep the faith Geezer! We're all counting on you to set the example and lead us lost sheep to the promised land.

 

[anerlich]

It is evolving beyond the accepted identity of Wing Chun and should be classified as a new system just as JKD is..

Nah. It's MMA with a Wing Chun base. It seems to work for Alan and his students.

I think Alan is stretching limits trying to fit everything he does as included in WC. A tan sao is not an underhook IMO. Or not all the time, anyway.

 

[anerlich]

You guys do not understand how CSL wing chun works at all so how can you say we do not use CSL wing chun in MMA. So many people can talk yet noone here can even post a video sparring to show they use wing chun in the way they are going on and on about.

I've seen Alan's Wing Chun NHB vids so I have some idea of his approach. I haven't followed the later force flow stuff, as the fifteen or so of Hendrik's 500 thirty minute videos on the subject that I've seen are unconvincing, as are most of his sycophants' or former sycophants' video demonstrations. Could I be wrong? Maybe. Is it worth a trip to the US to find out? No.

At 61 and with about $50,000 of dental work I don't wish to place at risk any time soon, I'm not going to make you a combat video. However, my instructor had 37 pro kickboxing matches back in the 70's and 80's and retired undefeated after a car accident. One of his instructor level students, Nick Ariel, has held a WKA kickboxing title (he might still hold it for all I know). Students from our Sydney and Ulverstone, Tasmania branches have competed successfully in kickboxing, BJJ, and MMA, including females. Just last weekend one of our Tasmanian MMA fighters won a cage fight and a belt. And all this has been accomplished without force flow.

My instructor doesn't have the same internet presence as Alan and Robert. Alan deserves kudos and respect, but he's not the only WC instructor having successes in combat sports. The more the merrier as far as I'm concerned.