Wing Chun applications in MMA or the street

[Hanzou]

No, that guy was posing like Donnie Yen in a movie, and then getting taken down. I didn't see any Wing Chun. He might have been planning on doing WC, but it never happened.

He wasn't utilizing this WC stance?

This is part of my problem with this argument; Now we're saying that clear WC techniques aren't "real" WC techniques because a WC practitioner got stomped in a MMA bout?

Now about what Alan Orr's guys do... He uses a lot of WC fighting concepts but he is training MMA fighters to compete in MMA. So of course that shows. Alan gets the same flack from WC purists as he does from you, and he's answered it. No point in repeating it. You either don't understand or don't accept his arguments. Personally I don't care.

I am interested to see where he goes with his stuff and how far he gets.

Well if the argument is that he's using WC concepts, I simply don't buy his argument, because his fighters aren't doing anything different than what other fighters are doing.

For example, Kron Gracie says that he uses mainly Bjj in his fights because he personally believes that Bjj can win a MMA fight with little else. How does he prove this? By doing Guard pulls and actively forcing and finishing fights from closed guard. This makes Kron's argument a far more believable than Orr's, because I can actually see the difference.

 

[Juany118]

No, the problem is that someone is clearly doing kickboxing and a TMA practitioner attempts to counter saying that they're really doing their traditional MA. In actuality, that person really IS just doing kickboxing. Which makes sense btw, since they're trying to last more than 10 seconds in a fight.

Observe this video;

That guy was clearly doing Wing Chun.

If despite all the forms, weapons, and concepts the end result of your fighting style is looking like a kick boxer, why not just save the time and train in kickboxing?

First, WC core concepts aren't defined by that stance anymore than Karate in practice is defined by

Many traditional MA's have stances that are designed to teach fundamental concepts and to train specific muscle groups.. In WC's case (in the video you showed) what you see there is, relaxation (open hands) as well as protecting and attack from the center line. Once you have the concepts down at a higher level you. If you watch the video I posted again you will see one point where Izzo's student does a tan but with some his fist his closed, in one his hand is open but is sideways, not pointed up. It doesn't change the fact, in terms of function, it was a tan.

So it seems you miss the fact that multiple martial arts can throw a punch, trap a limb, do a take down or whatever, using the same body mechanics just calling it a different name. So I can do a fak sau (knife hand chop) but a Karate guy might say I did a shuto. I can do a biu jee/sau (finger thrust/spear hand) but the Taekwondo guy will say I did a pyong son keut chigi. The same applies to punches. A really traditional WC person may say that was a yut the kick boxer would say that was a punch. All that makes a yut a yut is the punch is thrown elbow down with fingers vertical and along the centerline.

Ultimately the stance isn't the point here, the point is looking at individual techniques and recognizing that due to basic body mechanics individual techniques are often shared by multiple fighting systems. This is a simple fact. As @geezer said this guy, along with the guy I posted a video of, Izzo, catch heat from WC "purists" because they focus more on the foundational principles more than exacting execution of specific techniques.

 

[guy b]

Exactly. I some people aren't a fan of this guy, he is an opinionated loud mouth, but at least he admits to being an opinionated loud mouth lol. However like him or hate him, say what he does is or is not "real" WC, but his methods work as evidenced by the fact you can actually find newspaper articles of him getting awards from his PD for disarming knife wielding suspects and the like. I definitely shares this attitude regarding advanced application.

It starts to get to the point at about 3:00 though earlier he makes a good point that most of what one may call techniques in WC are, when you break em down, essentially using the same forwarding energy principles of a punch (but that's not really relevant to this conversation.) Never studied with him myself but it makes a lot of sense from my perspective, which is admittedly street application and not MMA. It is kinda long, even starting at 3:00 but the idea that it doesn't have to look pretty once you have gotten past the learning phase is made throughout in addition to his basic philosophy of fighting.

Is it the return of Izzo?

 

[guy b]

Well if the argument is that he's using WC concepts, I simply don't buy his argument, because his fighters aren't doing anything different than what other fighters are doing.

I don't see VT concepts in what Alan Orr does. There is reference to things like "force flow", but it is difficult to know what these are supposed to be

 

[Juany118]

Is it the return of Izzo?

His WC isn't "clean" I will grant that and he is arrogant as all hell as well. However in terms of actual real world combatives; how fights start in real life, the effects of a real world environment (confined spaces, stairs etc), how various strikes you may encounter actually behave are VERY accurate, as is, imo, his conclusions based on these things in terms of overall tactics are pretty spot on. In terms of how punches behave I usually use the hook punch to the head as you close in as an example. Some people (maybe not you) think a simple tan will stop it. However that 1. Can take your arm too far off center and 2. Even then, due to the curved nature of the arm you can still eat the punch.

 

[KPM]

I'm forced to agree with Drop Bear. If Orr had only trained in WC, and actually looked like a WC fighter when he fights in MMA, I could buy what he's selling. The problem is that when he fights he looks like a generic MMA fighter who learned MMA.

To see the opposite of this check out guys like Machida, A. Silva, Ryan Hall, Holdsworth, Rousey and Kron Gracie who are all using very distinct MA styles within MMA.

How are those examples "opposite" of what Alan Orr is doing? Machida....follow footage as his career progressed and you see less and less obvious Karate and more and more obvious MMA. Same with Rousey. Sure she uses Judo, but so do a lot of people in MMA. I think its a matter of percentages. What percentage of time does the person depart from "typical" MMA? How often does Machida do a "picture perfect" Karate kick and how often does Rousey do a "picture perfect" Judo throw? Same applies to Alan Orr's guys. How often do they do "picture perfect" Wing Chun punches up the centerline, or a Tan Sau with gloves on? It is what it is. Most come to the MMA game with some kind of background, but its all still MMA when the bell rings.

 

[Hanzou]

First, WC core concepts aren't defined by that stance anymore than Karate in practice is defined by

Many traditional MA's have stances that are designed to teach fundamental concepts and to train specific muscle groups.. In WC's case (in the video you showed) what you see there is, relaxation (open hands) as well as protecting and attack from the center line. Once you have the concepts down at a higher level you. If you watch the video I posted again you will see one point where Izzo's student does a tan but with some his fist his closed, in one his hand is open but is sideways, not pointed up. It doesn't change the fact, in terms of function, it was a tan.

So it seems you miss the fact that multiple martial arts can throw a punch, trap a limb, do a take down or whatever, using the same body mechanics just calling it a different name. So I can do a fak sau (knife hand chop) but a Karate guy might say I did a shuto. I can do a biu jee/sau (finger thrust/spear hand) but the Taekwondo guy will say I did a pyong son keut chigi. The same applies to punches. A really traditional WC person may say that was a yut the kick boxer would say that was a punch. All that makes a yut a yut is the punch is thrown elbow down with fingers vertical and along the centerline.

Ultimately the stance isn't the point here, the point is looking at individual techniques and recognizing that due to basic body mechanics individual techniques are often shared by multiple fighting systems. This is a simple fact. As @geezer said this guy, along with the guy I posted a video of, Izzo, catch heat from WC "purists" because they focus more on the foundational principles more than exacting execution of specific techniques.

Except that Machida for example DOES utilize Karate stances, footwork and strikes within MMA. You can see him do it, and it's very distinct because it's way different than what you typically see in MMA. Thus you can't say that at the highest levels everything looks the same.

 

[Hanzou]

How are those examples "opposite" of what Alan Orr is doing? Machida....follow footage as his career progressed and you see less and less obvious Karate and more and more obvious MMA. Same with Rousey. Sure she uses Judo, but so do a lot of people in MMA. I think its a matter of percentages. What percentage of time does the person depart from "typical" MMA? How often does Machida do a "picture perfect" Karate kick and how often does Rousey do a "picture perfect" Judo throw? Same applies to Alan Orr's guys. How often do they do "picture perfect" Wing Chun punches up the centerline, or a Tan Sau with gloves on? It is what it is. Most come to the MMA game with some kind of background, but its all still MMA when the bell rings.

Really? I saw his last fight against Weidman and he was still utilizing his trademark karate footwork and striking ability. Rousey was still doing obvious Judo throws until she decided that she wanted to start trying to out box kick boxers.

It's not about being picture perfect. It's about doing something that is clearly not the norm. Alan Orr's guys are indistinguishable from your typical MMA fighter. In fact, if you never told me that those guys were doing WC, I wouldn't know it. On the other hand, if you watched Rousey or Shinya Aoki , it was very clear that their grappling base was way different than the norm. The same applies to Anderson Silva who applied boxing style evasion alongside Muay Thai clinching to create a distinct striking style.

 

[Juany118]

Except that Machida for example DOES utilize Karate stances, footwork and strikes within MMA. You can see him do it, and it's very distinct because it's way different than what you typically see in MMA. Thus you can't say that at the highest levels everything looks the same.

First, the punches shown in the video do adhere in large part to WC punches as the elbows are down and the knuckles are stacked vertically. Also, technically, so long as you can strike equally with both fists, you are doing a WC straight punch. You are the one who quibbled over the "stance." Well Machida doesn't take a "Karate" stance. So you not only are ignoring the physics of a punch but also applying a double standard.

Second Machida definitely bounces around on his toes, not as much as others but he does it. He also does more than a little bobbing and weaving. That certainly isn't part of Karate footwork. What screams Karate in this?

Lastly you are ignoring completely the point I made regarding how If you only see a particular technique thrown (in the examples a knife hand and a spear hand), two people studying different MAs can look at it and see it as a technique from theirs because techniques are shared across many arts, the only difference being terminology. This is a fact you keep ignoring rather religiously as a matter of fact.

 

[Hanzou]

Fox sports did an excellent breakdown of Machida's style;

Breaking Down Lyoto Machida's Karate Style

Additionally there's the famous Machida crane kick that knocked out Randy Couture.

The point is that a fighter with a distinctive base should have aspects of that distinctness emerge when they fight. That isn't the case with Orr or his students.

 

[Juany118]

Fox sports did an excellent breakdown of Machida's style;

Breaking Down Lyoto Machida's Karate Style

Additionally there's the famous Machida crane kick that knocked out Randy Couture.

The point is that a fighter with a distinctive base should have aspects of that distinctness emerge when they fight. That isn't the case with Orr or his students.

And again you ignoring inconvenient key points made by more than one person and changing your argument. First it was "I see WC". When the principles and some techniques of WC are explained and it's clear you could call it WC now you are moving the goal post to distinctive.

 

[Hanzou]

And again you ignoring inconvenient key points made by more than one person and changing your argument. First it was "I see WC". When the principles and some techniques of WC are explained and it's clear you could call it WC now you are moving the goal post to distinctive.

Uh, where did I change my argument?

I said in the beginning that I don't see the WC in what Orr is doing, and I still don't see the WC in what Orr is doing. My point with bringing up Machida is that I CAN see the karate elements in his fighting style, and clearly others can too, which is why a major media hub published a lengthy article about it. His karate influence is obvious to anyone watching him fight, and that is NOT the case when we talk about Orr.

Further I recognize your key points, but those points are invalidated by the examples I posted. You can't say that in the end everything looks alike when we have very clear examples of fighters from unique MA bases looking unique at the highest level of combat sports.

That's the point.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Uh, where did I change my argument?

I said in the beginning that I don't see the WC in what Orr is doing, and I still don't see the WC in what Orr is doing. My point with bringing up Machida is that I CAN see the karate elements in his fighting style, and clearly others can too, which is why a major media hub published a lengthy article about it. His karate influence is obvious to anyone watching him fight, and that is NOT the case when we talk about Orr.

Further I recognize your key points, but those points are invalidated by the examples I posted. You can't say that in the end everything looks alike when we have very clear examples of fighters from unique MA bases looking unique at the highest level of combat sports.

That's the point.

As has been pointed out to you ad nauseum, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You're not exactly an expert.

 

[Hanzou]

As has been pointed out to you ad nauseum, just because you don't see it doesn't mean it's not there. You're not exactly an expert.

Uh, I'm not the only one not seeing it, as this thread and other threads about Orr have made abundantly clear.

 

[Juany118]

Uh, I'm not the only one not seeing it, as this thread and other threads about Orr have made abundantly clear.

Yes and those comments are based on a few things.
1. Wing Chun purists who hate that he is mixing it with MMA
2. People who don't understand that idea of a conceptual MA and ignore the fact that multiple martial arts share the same techniques.
3. People who think, that to say a particular Martial art is involved it also needs to be somehow distinct in appearance, because they don't get point 2.

So basically prejudice and ignorance.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes and those comments are based on a few things.
1. Wing Chun purists who hate that he is mixing it with MMA
2. People who don't understand that idea of a conceptual MA and ignore the fact that multiple martial arts share the same techniques.
3. People who think, that to say a particular Martial art is involved it also needs to be somehow distinct in appearance, because they don't get point 2.

So basically prejudice and ignorance.

What a bunch of nonsense.

Wasn't karate one of your "conceptual MAs" as well? Then how do you explain Machida looking like a distinct fighter while utilizing a "conceptual MA"? You spent several posts trying to peg Machida as looking similar to other MMA fighters, even going so far as to showing a brief clip asking "where's the karate" in Machida's fighting style. So in kind I posted a lengthy article describing exactly how Machida utilizes recognizable karate within MMA and you completely ignored it.

Don't you find it a little strange that everyone "understands" that Machida is utilizing karate in MMA, yet for some reason the vast majority of observers see little to no WC from Orr including WC practitioners themselves?

 

[drop bear]

Fox sports did an excellent breakdown of Machida's style;

Breaking Down Lyoto Machida's Karate Style

Additionally there's the famous Machida crane kick that knocked out Randy Couture.

The point is that a fighter with a distinctive base should have aspects of that distinctness emerge when they fight. That isn't the case with Orr or his students.

Wing chun does not really have distinctive properties?

Change the stance,abandon the overuse of hand trapping,add in head movement and more than one punch and you basically have amateur boxing.

Which is all centreline,speedy punches and tight elbows.

Surprise surprise Australia got mauled in boxing by Cuba.

 

[guy b]

People who don't understand that idea of a conceptual MA and ignore the fact that multiple martial arts share the same techniques.

The problem with Alan Orr's team is that the VT conceptual base is not there.

 

[drop bear]

The problem with Alan Orr's team is that the VT conceptual base is not there.

Is VT essentially one focused element of boxing though?

That seems to be the impression I get. That they have isolated 1 fighting style and method.

I mean straight punches work. Getting good angles works. Counter punches work. Punches in bunches works. Even hand trapping works.

But then they seem to focus inwards. More punches,more straight line,every punch has to be a counter punch and so on. And it is that focus that makes VT.

 

[Juany118]

The problem with Alan Orr's team is that the VT conceptual base is not there.

I think we have gone around that bush to the point of dizziness in another thread.