Will Brazilian Jiujitsu eventually replace Japanese Jujitsu?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Hanzou, Oct 13, 2020.

  1. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I suspect there's been some signal loss from when they were first taught. I've looked at some of the techniques I learned, and had to ask whether they were always this obscure and hard to get to, or have we (those learning the style) simply lost what the technique was supposed to be and/or what made it available (the entry or situation that makes it a reasonable choice).

    I suspect some of both that and the never properly vetted. I also suspect there are some techniques that were meant for training a principle, rather than for application. They make great sense as drills, but not so much as functional fighting techniques.
     
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  2. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Ok. Name one JJJ school that holds the equivalent of an open mat.

    You can have the entire family of schools if you want.
     
  3. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I don't think he is saying that. I think he is creating a platform for dogma.

    So. JJJ has a proven? History of their martial arts working in the battlefield for hundreds of years. We have preserved their system of training and replicate it and because the human body has not changed. Therefore we have a proven system of martial arts.

    Very much like the kata fallacy.

    It removes any requirement to show the system works in any context.
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2020
  4. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    BJJ created a different culture than has been seen in a lot of martial arts. Where sparring sessions are open to outsiders.

    It is a high risk strategy if you are intent on protecting an image. Which many martial arts styles are.

    Which is also why we won't see randori filmed in some schools.
     
  5. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    So martial arts hasn't evolved but being able to draw the human body has?
     
  6. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    Yes. Written in a 500 year old German dialect. There are, I think, 4 total manuals by this instructor. He's a major source for those studying this branch of "knightly" martial arts.

    Most of these old fight manuals cannot be read the same way that you read a modern manual. They illustrated things differently at different time and for different reasons. Many of these are the equivalent of short-hand notes written and illustrated by the student himself (particularly the Italian Longsword stuff) and are not intended to show every last step. Many other manuals are actually the equivalent of advertisements by fighting experts looking to land a cushy job teaching a Noble's sons. These are often written so that it leaves out important steps, or even the "finish" ; it'd be silly to give away the goods when you're trying to make book of of them.

    As bizarre as it may sound to you, it takes a lot of work to read and understand these. I actually sat through a seminar by a Professor on how to read and understand Medieval "instructional" manuscripts. If you don't do it right, your recipe for bread will be screwed up because you only thought you knew how to read a Medieval manual when you didn't.

    While I found that seminar highly instructive, I found the seminar on the historic context of Dueling to be much more engaging.
     
  7. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    No. You're ability to understand how to read Medieval manuscripts, or their contexts, is untrained.

    I'll say it again, but I doubt it'll sink in. Photo-realism wasn't important for most Medieval instructional manuscripts. They had their own ideas of how to record what was important and they're not necessarily your ideas.
     
  8. Tony Dismukes

    Tony Dismukes MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I've been getting into archery this last few months, so I'm going to use an analogy from that domain.

    If you want a bow to hunt deer and bring home meat for your family, then from a strictly functional standpoint a modern compound bow is the way to go. These bows can produce reliable precision accuracy and killing power with less training time than any other bow in the history of archery. This would explain why (in the U.S. at least) these bows are generally the most popular especially among hunters.

    On the other hand, there are still people out there who can hand knap flint arrowheads and build simple bows and arrows with nothing more than hand tools and materials they find in the forest. Personally, I think that's really cool. I think the world is a little richer because that kind of cultural knowledge has been preserved. Are these bows and arrows the most effective tool currently available for hunting food? Nah, but that's not really the point. Heck, for most of us the easiest way to get meat is to go to the supermarket.
     
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  9. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Okay, but that doesn’t change the fact that what was depicted in that image isn’t a choke. In fact, that’s almost exactly how someone shouldn’t do the guillotine choke.


    That’s a very long winded excuse. Again, if that’s being advertised as a choke, then it’s false advertisement. You can try it yourself; wrap your arm around the side of your partner’s neck with your hand palm up right under your partner’s head, and try to choke them. You can even clamp your hands together. Let me know how it works out for you.

    Cool. That still isn’t a Guillotine though.
     
  10. lklawson

    lklawson Senior Master

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    By your uninformed say so.

    Why don't you translate the 500 year old dialect and tell me what your translation is.

    Dueling isn't a guillotine choke? Tell me more.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Like I said, you can attempt it yourself. It’s not going to choke out your partner.

    How does a translation change the fact that that image isn’t depicting a valid choking technique?

    I wasn’t talking about dueling, I was talking about that pic you claimed was a Guillotine choke. As for the rest of those holds, yeah they’re rather suspect as well.
     
  12. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Hey, I wasn’t saying learning old stuff has no value, it certainly does. I was merely pointing out that you cross a line when you start to believe that wielding a medieval spear from Asia, or practicing a kata where you ambush a seated person drinking tea is as practical as carrying a knife or learning the guard, or learning boxing.
     
  13. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Makes sense there is a text that only the initiated can decipher.
     
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  14. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I don’t know the policies of more than a few. I can recall a couple where I could have gone and played. Not sure how intense their sparring would be, nor if that same open invite would have applied if my core wasn’t closely related. That last part is part of the overall issue, I think. I expect an open mat time at a BJJ school, they’d be happy to let me get on the mats and get pretzeled, even though I’m not a BJJ guy.
     
  15. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree with all but the last sentence. I don’t think the omission is nearly as purposeful as you suspect.
     
  16. Hanzou

    Hanzou Grandmaster

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    Yes they would. Especially if you tell them you're from Aikido.
     
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  17. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    I think it is so ingrained in the culture that it is not seen as purposeful.
     
  18. drop bear

    drop bear Sr. Grandmaster

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    Or if you are from a competing BJJ school.

    Rather than the days of the dojo storm.

     
    Last edited: Oct 21, 2020
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  19. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

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    So "that guy with the tie die man thong" doesn't count?
     
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  20. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    That's a possibility. I think it's mostly a matter of what they think is important (and as I said before, what they think looks interesting). Even some of the TMA places I've been to that spar don't see it as fundamental, so they focus vidoes on the stuff that they think is.123
     
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