What Did The UFC Really Prove?

[Littledragon]

Ever since the Ultimate Fighting Championship bursted on the scene in 1993 it shocked the martial arts and combat workd forever. It gave the impression and message to all martial artists that your style either works or doesn't work. When Rorian Gracie created the UFC not only did he have in mind on who is the Ultimate Fighter but what was the ultimate style? After the victory of Royce Gracie in UFC 1,2 and 4 the message that was sent to every martial artist during that time was that a real fight ends up on the ground and you better know what to do once you are there. But when looking at the UFC has there realy been a master martial artist that stood out and gave once of the fighters a real challenge? Did the UFC really establish an "Ultimate Fighter". Through out my years of watching every single UFC tape there was I have yet to seen a master martial artist that really stood out. I have never seen an Aikido grandmaster comopete or a World Karate champion grand master compete or even a Korean Tae Kwon Do master in the UFC. So can the winner of the tournament really be decalred the Ultimate Fighter? I think the UFC is great but it is not "IT" If you win it it does not mean you are the best. What did the UFC really prove besides that you need grappling as a solid basis in a fight? Did it really prove what style was superior over another? No because you never got those REAL Martial Art masters to compete instead you got a truck driver Dave 'Tank" Abbot. What I am saying is that if a real martial art master would compete the out come would have been dramitically different. If you were to see a korean tae kwon do master fight a grappler opinions would change. So the UFC never really proved the winner to be the best or "ULTIMATE Fighter" but more now just a tough guy. The UFC didn't prove that grappling was totlly superior because you never saw any real martial art masters compete agains it. So what really did the UFC prove besides tough guys taking a beating?

Tarek Hussein (16)

 

[Cruentus]

UFC proved a few things:

#1. Groundfighting is hell-ov-important, and shouldn't be taken for granted like it was prior to UFC.

#2. "Live" training against resisting, unpredictable opponents is vital to all training.

#3. NHB fighting is not combat or street defense, but it is a very tough sport.

Yours,

Kimo

 

[Littledragon]

UFC proved a few things:

#1. Groundfighting is hell-ov-important, and shouldn't be taken for granted like it was prior to UFC.

#2. "Live" training against resisting, unpredictable opponents is vital to all training.

#3. NHB fighting is not combat or street defense, but it is a very tough sport.

Yours,

Kimo

Thank you for your response and I totally agree with you. The UFC did prove those aspects which was in benefit for martial artists as well as it proved and kind of gave an image on what a real fight using martial arts was.

Thanks.

Tarek

 

[DuckofDeath]

I'd love to see Tank Abbott go up against a "REAL Martial Arts master"!

 

[Littledragon]

I'd love to see Tank Abbott go up against a "REAL Martial Arts master"!

Same! We all know what would be the end result.


Tarek (16)

 

[DuckofDeath]

Same! We all know what would be the end result.

:asian:​

 

[Littledragon]

:asian:​

Also I think it would be a wake up call to some of the UFC fighters, some of them need to check their egos. They are tough guys no doubt but strength can not over power the experience of the mind and those Real martial art masters have what these UFC fighters lack. Just imagine Tae Kwon Do Grandmaster Hee Il Cho, he would literally wipe those UFC fighters off their feet.

Now those are the true champions.

Tarek

 

[hedgehogey]

I have never seen an Aikido grandmaster comopete

That's to be expected, considering aikido is pacifist.

or a World Karate champion grand master compete

Minoki Uchihara, many others

or even a Korean Tae Kwon Do master in the UFC.

Kimo, Kim Jing Wu

C level MMA fighters would wipe the floor with cho. There's thousands of amatuer events for him across the country, he can enter at any time.

 

[Littledragon]

That's to be expected, considering aikido is pacifist.



Minoki Uchihara, many others



Kimo, Kim Jing Wu

C level MMA fighters would wipe the floor with cho. There's thousands of amatuer events for him across the country, he can enter at any time.

No way C level MMA fighers would wipe the floor with cho. Kimo and Kim Jing Wu are not true Tae Kwon Do masters and I think that most can agree with me on that.

Minoki Uchihara is not a karate master but a 2nd degree black belt, he was not that good at all he was not a skileld fighter or martial artist. I am talking about real Japanese Karate Masters such as Mas Oyama, Geshin Funakoshi, Gogen Yamaguchi, etc.. But saying Kimo is a tae kwon do master is incorrect because he is not, and no c level MMA fighters would wipe the floor with Cho I dont think you have seen what he can do.

Tarek

 

[hedgehogey]

No way C level MMA fighers would wipe the floor with cho. Kimo and Kim Jing Wu are not true Tae Kwon Do masters and I think that most can agree with me on that.
Tarek

I've seen his website. I'd bet on a guy with 2 fights vs him. He can't grapple, simple as that.

Of course, if these "True TKD masters" are so good, there's thousands of NHB events that would love to have them.

 

[Littledragon]

I've seen his website. I'd bet on a guy with 2 fights vs him. He can't grapple, simple as that.

Of course, if these "True TKD masters" are so good, there's thousands of NHB events that would love to have them.

You've seen his website but you really haven't seen him. I don't agree with you on this one sorry.

 

[MJS]

Whats amazing is that you never see any of the 'Masters' enter in these fights. Now maybe its because they are not interested, maybe its because they fear that if they lose, it'll have a bad effect on them. I would think though, that any of the MMA events out there would be more than happy to have these people enter.

I do agree with HH though....you need to have a grappling background if you want to succeed in these events. At the very least, you need to understand the ground. Now a good example is Maurice Smith. Here you have a kickboxer who spent some time training with Frank Shamrock. Frank showed him some basic ground defense and it was enough to keep Mark Coleman from submitting him.

Mike

 

[Littledragon]

Whats amazing is that you never see any of the 'Masters' enter in these fights. Now maybe its because they are not interested, maybe its because they fear that if they lose, it'll have a bad effect on them. I would think though, that any of the MMA events out there would be more than happy to have these people enter.

I do agree with HH though....you need to have a grappling background if you want to succeed in these events. At the very least, you need to understand the ground. Now a good example is Maurice Smith. Here you have a kickboxer who spent some time training with Frank Shamrock. Frank showed him some basic ground defense and it was enough to keep Mark Coleman from submitting him.

Mike

Honestly, if a true martial art master such as Jhoon Rhee, Steven Seagal,Mas Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi, Bong Soo Han, they are true martial artists and would win regardless if they know grappling or not. You have these masters training for over 30 years and achieved the highest technique, I think these are true martial artists and they could win against any of the tough UFC fighters out today.

 

[MJS]

Honestly, if a true martial art master such as Jhoon Rhee, Steven Seagal,Mas Oyama, Gichin Funakoshi, Bong Soo Han, they are true martial artists and would win regardless if they know grappling or not. You have these masters training for over 30 years and achieved the highest technique, I think these are true martial artists and they could win against any of the tough UFC fighters out today.

Ron Van Cleif fought Royce in UFC 4 and lost. Now, here is someone that has been doing Goju for how many years and what happened?? I'm not disagreeing with you here. The people that you mentioned are great MA, and have been around for a long time. It all goes back to the stand up/grappling debate. If you're not familiar with something how can you expect to defend it? This can be broken down into 3 parts----before, during and after.

Before- Before the fight goes to the ground, you have your stand up skills. Striking, kicking, etc. All things that are done to keep the grappler at bay.

During- The grappler is closing the distance and is getting the clinch. Is there time to react?? If the anti-grappling techs. are being taught against a non-resisting opp. then of course its going to work....the attacker is just standing there, letting the other guy do his stuff. Now, add a little resistance and it all changes.

After- The stand up fighter is on the ground getting pummeled. Has or does the stand up artist do his techs. on the ground? Does he know how to move? Does he know how to avoid the grappler from getting into a more superior position? You take someone like Rickson Gracie. The man has been undefeated in 400+ fights. Now, in all of those fights, I find it hard to believe that he has never fought a stand up guy that didnt have skill.

Again, as I said before. If you really want to be prepared, you should understand all ranges of fighting.

Mike

 

[Littledragon]

Ron Van Cleif fought Royce in UFC 4 and lost. Now, here is someone that has been doing Goju for how many years and what happened?? I'm not disagreeing with you here. The people that you mentioned are great MA, and have been around for a long time. It all goes back to the stand up/grappling debate. If you're not familiar with something how can you expect to defend it? This can be broken down into 3 parts----before, during and after.

Before- Before the fight goes to the ground, you have your stand up skills. Striking, kicking, etc. All things that are done to keep the grappler at bay.

During- The grappler is closing the distance and is getting the clinch. Is there time to react?? If the anti-grappling techs. are being taught against a non-resisting opp. then of course its going to work....the attacker is just standing there, letting the other guy do his stuff. Now, add a little resistance and it all changes.

After- The stand up fighter is on the ground getting pummeled. Has or does the stand up artist do his techs. on the ground? Does he know how to move? Does he know how to avoid the grappler from getting into a more superior position? You take someone like Rickson Gracie. The man has been undefeated in 400+ fights. Now, in all of those fights, I find it hard to believe that he has never fought a stand up guy that didnt have skill.

Again, as I said before. If you really want to be prepared, you should understand all ranges of fighting.

Mike

Ron Van Clief was 51 and not in good shape at that time in fact I don't care how many blackbelts and titles he has I don't think he is a great martial artsist. I just can't see how someone like Kimo or Frank Mir could beat a true Karate Grandmaster like Mas Oyama who killed bulls with his bare hands.

 

[MJS]

Ron Van Clief was 51 and not in good shape at that time in fact I don't care how many blackbelts and titles he has I don't think he is a great martial artsist. I just can't see how someone like Kimo or Frank Mir could beat a true Karate Grandmaster like Mas Oyama who killed bulls with his bare hands.

Well, I'm just going to say 2 things here.

1- We're all entitled to our opinions. I'm not a fan of RVC, but I was just using him as an example. At least he had the guts to get into the ring and test his skills.

2- I agree. Mas Oyama was an excellent MA. Just something to keep in mind here...there is always the chance that you may get beat one day. Ed Parker was excellent when it came to Kenpo. Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were excellent in their day and still are. Does that mean that they could never be beat???

Mike

 

[Littledragon]

Well, I'm just going to say 2 things here.

1- We're all entitled to our opinions. I'm not a fan of RVC, but I was just using him as an example. At least he had the guts to get into the ring and test his skills.

2- I agree. Mas Oyama was an excellent MA. Just something to keep in mind here...there is always the chance that you may get beat one day. Ed Parker was excellent when it came to Kenpo. Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were excellent in their day and still are. Does that mean that they could never be beat???

Mike

My conclusion is true martial arts masters are different from just tough MMA fighter, Rickson Gracie wins every match because he is a true master in his art and not just a tough wrestler like Frank Mir or a tough guy like Tank Abbot. You will see the difference if you watch a true martial art master fighting compared to just a tough guy who knows how to punch and wrestle and can take a few hits.

 

[MJS]

My conclusion is true martial arts masters are different from just tough MMA fighter, Rickson Gracie wins every match because he is a true master in his art and not just a tough wrestler like Frank Mir or a tough guy like Tank Abbot. You will see the difference if you watch a true martial art master fighting compared to just a tough guy who knows how to punch and wrestle and can take a few hits.

Agreed!! :asian: Again, please dont misunderstand what I'm saying here. I've never said that Tank or Mir were the best fighters around. As for true masters....I had the chance this past weekend to attend a 2 day seminar with Leo Gaje from the Pekiti Tirsia system. The man is 66 yrs. old but moves lke someone who is 20! His stick and knife work is some of the best that I've seen. It was really amazing to watch someone throw around men that were much taller and stronger. I've also had the chance to see the late Remy Presas. He too was incredible to watch!!! So yes, to answer your question, I have had the chance many times to see some great Masters, and I agree with what you said.

Mike

 

[OULobo]

2- I agree. Mas Oyama was an excellent MA. Just something to keep in mind here...there is always the chance that you may get beat one day. Ed Parker was excellent when it came to Kenpo. Chuck Norris and Bill Wallace were excellent in their day and still are. Does that mean that they could never be beat???

I can't believe I'm actually posting in the MMA forum. I figured I'd put my $.02 in. There is nothing inherent about grappling that makes it superior, but that being said, the environment of today has made grappling a premier art that has gone through a horrendously steep learning curve. Combine that with a traditional martial arts community that was both stagnant and framed in a comfort zone, and you have the perfect situation for the "world domination" of grapplers. The athleticism and realistic experience (and some brass cajones) of a modern grappler is what makes him so dangerous. People like Mas Oyama spent much of their youth learning all aspects of fighting and testing them on a daily basis against everything they could find in life. Anyone no matter how great they are in their own system needs to cross-train or they will get hammered. Someone mentioned Segal, he already had his butt handed to him by a grappler if I remember correctly, and then he asked for a few lessons. That is a the sign of a good martial artist, smart fighter and decent guy. That he asked to learn shows he can handle getting beat and has the drive, desire and openmindedness to learn something new. One guy that I didn't respect for many years was Norris. I always assumed he was the usual "This is my art and none is better. I am tough and one of the best fighters in the world because I win tournaments.", besides he was an actor. Later I learned that he was in the military and constantly cross-training. He worked in many arts some traditional, some combat oriented, later even grappling. He adapted as a fighter and never allowed himself to be limited by a single art. Definitly a guy I can respect, for an actor.

 

[Littledragon]

I can't believe I'm actually posting in the MMA forum. I figured I'd put my $.02 in. There is nothing inherent about grappling that makes it superior, but that being said, the environment of today has made grappling a premier art that has gone through a horrendously steep learning curve. Combine that with a traditional martial arts community that was both stagnant and framed in a comfort zone, and you have the perfect situation for the "world domination" of grapplers. The athleticism and realistic experience (and some brass cajones) of a modern grappler is what makes him so dangerous. People like Mas Oyama spent much of their youth learning all aspects of fighting and testing them on a daily basis against everything they could find in life. Anyone no matter how great they are in their own system needs to cross-train or they will get hammered. Someone mentioned Segal, he already had his butt handed to him by a grappler if I remember correctly, and then he asked for a few lessons. That is a the sign of a good martial artist, smart fighter and decent guy. That he asked to learn shows he can handle getting beat and has the drive, desire and openmindedness to learn something new. One guy that I didn't respect for many years was Norris. I always assumed he was the usual "This is my art and none is better. I am tough and one of the best fighters in the world because I win tournaments.", besides he was an actor. Later I learned that he was in the military and constantly cross-training. He worked in many arts some traditional, some combat oriented, later even grappling. He adapted as a fighter and never allowed himself to be limited by a single art. Definitly a guy I can respect, for an actor.

Good post. Btw the grappler you mentioned on Seagal was RUMOURED to have happened on the set of Under Siege, "Judo" Gene Lebell is rumoured to have challenged Seagal to a little match after Seagal was challenging all the stuntmen to a little combat. But we don't know that for sure.