Why the barrage?

[47MartialMan]

And as to mass marketing tactics, basically if you say something enough times, it doesn't matter whether it is true or logical. Overworked and afraid people will unknowlingly buy into it.

Does this apply to 10th Dans and epithetical titles?

 

[Bammx2]

Yeah, I like that one--stole it from a Paul Zindel novel.

So the view from abroad--have we just gone nationally nuts?

uuummmm.....
yea.

They pretty much think the US are insane, power mad,war monging,paranoid schizoids.
The war in iraq has been "unofficially" dubbed the 21st century crusade.
Even passing up the war for oil "theory".
Depending on the area of the country....
I do NOT go anywhere near due to the fact I am just an american.
And now that Malcom Glazer has bought Manchester United, the fans have lost thier frikken minds just because an AMERICAN owns thier team.
Of course,they all know Bush is the anti-christ.
Blair won the election last month,but says he will resign next year.
The Brits are getting somewhat annoyed at the treatment some of thier own at the hands of US immigration.
Example: One of the talk shows this very morning had a Brit who kicked out of the US on visa fraud just because he stayed over 5 days to be there when his son was born.
And now he has been denied re-entry back into the US.
5 days? c'mon...it was his son for chrst sake.
A British journalist went to the US fo a vaction not too long ago with his his family and because of a computer glich on the US side,he was shuttled out straight away and denied re-entry back into the US permanently.
Reason: they said they had him on record as never leaving the US for the 5 years previous.But he had his passport right in front of them with all the other countries he had been in for those 5 years and the US was not among them.
His job is to travel the world and right about it.
Those are just a couple of examples that aren't helping our image in the slightest bit.
In general...people still like the US,but I have noticed a definate change in the atmosphere in the last 2 years.
Now when I meet new people,the first question I get is "do you like Bush"?
It used to be "How do you like it here"?
Don't get me wrong,I am not anti-american,but I do see where they get the "paranoid" part from in some cases.
And to be honest...the propaganda machine(media) doesn't help on either side.

As for the driving.....
Hand guns was banned cause they saw roadrage a commin!
I will NOT drive here! I WILL get a gun!
These people are taught how to pass a test...not how to drive.
Not even in the tiniest bit!
Once they get in a car,respect is a foriegn language!

 

[47MartialMan]

In the end, the people get "sold" what they are willing to buy. I wouldnt buy the "russian roullette" board game no matter who hawked it. How often I saw it sold on TV or how overworked I was...While media can influence, people are having something reinforced that they have believed somewhat true for a while. Thats the real problem. If you want to change their minds, IMO the way to do it is show them there is a better way, and take the high road while doing it. Not insult, degrade or call them idiots.....

Makes sense......

 

[Tgace]

I guess the political sheep are being lead by the media wolves. Good thing the sheepdogs are here to lead us to safety...:shrug:

 

[rmcrobertson]

I am a bit familiar with the Savage loonbox because listening to his show helps pass the time of driving cross the desert--and because, wherever you go know, somebody like him is screaming at some professorial type who actually knows what they're talking about and is trying to explain it politely, only to be met with screams of, "Traitor! Traitor!!!"

But what I don't get is what's actually so frightening about just living--I mean, did you LOOK at the General Self Defense forum's thread on weapons in the home?

 

[Tgace]

Get some good music or books on tape.....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Uh...I know you're not going to answer, but I'm interested in why you're not going to answer.

What's so bad, that simple disagreements over politics and policies are so often met with a barrage of personal accusations?

 

[Tgace]

Um...well its rarely the topic that results in the flames. Its all the "umms".."well I know this isnt going to make a difference"..."some people are just like Savage".."perhaps you should go read (translated, Im not going to have a civil conversation explaining my point of view but I will show you how well read I am)...etc. extras that come with these "discussions" that causes them to degrade. A lot of "passive aggressive Ad Hominums (sp?)" in some peoples posts. I tend towards the aggressive rather than the passive at times, but I can return the ball. I have had plenty of disagreements with people here that stayed quite civil, or got heated but in a friendly rivalry sort of way....some people however I do "treat in kind".

Tell me why it appears that some people catch more of what they consider "rude behavior" than others.....

 

[rmcrobertson]

Again, the fact that you insist on personalizing what I'm asking is part of what I'm asking about. But since you ask, "Uhhh...," is what I write in lieu of writing, "Are you nuts?" sometimes, "You might want to read," is just a professor thing, big deal, and I'm afraid I don't think I write much about what PEOPLE are like; I write about what their WORDS seem to resemble.

But what's so wrong with the country that this kind of stuff appears everywhere in the media, in endless barrages from right-wingers for whom nothing seems to be enough? Why the loopy tetchiness over ANYTHING less than a salute and three, "Yessirs, President Bush?"

 

[Tgace]

Why do people who have no problem tearing into other people on the internet suddenly get so touchy? If some people were civil, perhaps they would be treated in kind and at least have people rally to their defense when treated otherwise.

As to the rest, why do some people assume that if somebody disagrees with them that they are lock step Bushites? While admittedly I am Pro Military/LE, that doesnt necessarily translate to Pro Administration. While I admit I dont hate/dislike the current administration as much as others, its deninately not an all or nothing situation. I thought one didnt believe in sheep analogies.

Then again, I seem to recall some people posting some rationalization for their "tone" at one time. I just havent been able to find it again....

Freedom of speech doesnt mean a mandate to listen....IMO everybody has a right to say what they want and they pretty much do around here dont they?Just be ready to get some in return.

 

[rmcrobertson]

Sorry that you feel that way. I'd respond in depth (for example, I'd note...never mind) but I am--how many times have I now said this--not really interested in personalizing this. I'm just asking a question.

So AGAIN: what is so wrong with the way the country is that folks find it OK to launch all sorts of personal attacks on the fellow Americans' decency and patriotism, often with little or no provocation? Why not just explain positions and ideas and supply facts--what's the big emergency that makes something so simple impossible?

I mean, assume that from time to time I screw up and don't get the tone right, or something--so what's the big deal? Ahura-Mazda knows I choke back a lot of things I might write, and try (OK, yes, I know, I don't always succeed, quel surprise) to cut through to the issue again...so what's the Big Disaster?

I mean, anybody out there REALLY think that the apocalypse is right round the corner? That the libs and lesbians really ARE taking over our schools? That everybody who voted for Kerry was a traitor, that Kerry really was a dishonorable man? That the ACLU and Amnesty International really are Out To Get America? Any of that stuff we're barraged with now?

C'mahn--what's the probelm? What's so bad with the country?

 

[47MartialMan]

Freedom of speech doesnt mean a mandate to listen....IMO everybody has a right to say what they want and they pretty much do around here dont they?Just be ready to get some in return.

At least there is a "Ignore" feature here.

 

[Tgace]

Absolutely nothing that hasnt been "wrong" since 1776. I seem to recall that our fine citizens once fought a war with each other over some dispute at one time or another...odd how folks who ask are the ones that seem to post theyre "problems" with Pax Americana at every turn. I mean does anybody really think that the president of the US is involved in some sort of star chamber intent on world domination and that he let 9/11 happen to set the plan in motion? Granted you havent stated that, but there isnt a lot of "that needs to change but America is sound" sentiment expressed by the side I tend to argue with. Why is it that anybody who expresses some patriotic sentiment gets classified as a rights trampeling Bush brown noser?

 

[MisterMike]

Sorry that you feel that way. I'd respond in depth (for example, I'd note...never mind) but I am--how many times have I now said this--not really interested in personalizing this. I'm just asking a question.

Are you the only one here who can ask a question and only be "just asking a question?" I think I've tried that one the past here.

So AGAIN: what is so wrong with the way the country is that folks find it OK to launch all sorts of personal attacks on the fellow Americans' decency and patriotism, often with little or no provocation?

Nothing is wrong with the country. Just a few indivduals.

I mean, anybody out there REALLY think that the apocalypse is right round the corner? That the libs and lesbians really ARE taking over our schools? That everybody who voted for Kerry was a traitor, that Kerry really was a dishonorable man? That the ACLU and Amnesty International really are Out To Get America? Any of that stuff we're barraged with now?

C'mahn--what's the probelm? What's so bad with the country?

I think it's kinda like the frog in the warm water, slowly being heated. It's a slow process but eventually he gets cooked. Again, it's not the country these guys go on about, just a few individuals. I haven't heard half of the stuff you mentioned and proll'y listen to more talk radio than you do. Going after a few off the wall talk show hosts isn't going to gain your team any points. You gotta come up with some fundamentally important ideals that the right wingers have that are just so terribly contradictory to life, liberty and the persuit of happiness.

 

[rmcrobertson]

My team? Just a few individuals? Frogs? What the hell are you talking about?

That's precisely what I'm talking about. Why the rudeness? C'mahn--do you really think we're sitting out here, engaged in some grand conspiracy of idiots?

Actually, I'm just starting to think that conservatives have a point--manners certainly have declined. It's a pity that I have to note that however crassly you happen to think the other guy's behaving, the thing to do is to TRY and respond politely.

But I see that AGAIN, there's no answer. here's the question: what's so bad, that it demands the sort of personal attacks, conspiracy fantasies, and invective that we see all the time these days, especially from people who identify themselves as right-wingers, conservatives, Republicans, and fundamentalists? It's not just a few--it's all the rightist political talk shows, which is pretty much all of them.

What is it that's so bad out there?

Personally, I blame John McLaughlin. After all, Joe Pyne and Alan Burke, they daid.

 

[Tgace]

Theres enough of that **** to go around on both sides. Why is it that everything that comes out of liberal mouths seems to be "America sucks because...", "Our way of life is wrong because..."?

Whats wrong with conservatives?

http://www.dogchurch.org/scriptorium/RightState.htm


What wrong with Liberals?

http://www.dogchurch.org/scriptorium/LeftState.htm

 

[sgtmac_46]

When I drive to and from work--long commute, don't ask--I often get stuck with AM radio. And on AM radio (unless I can get Jim Rome) there's an endless barrage of what I'd have to call right wing and fundamentalist Christian jazz to listen to.

Apparently, our country's going straight to hell. Apparently, every murderer gers off. Apparently, the liberal-left-lesbian conspiracy will--sometime next week--take every gun, force everybody to have abortions wheteher they're preggnant or not, and burn every Bible. Apparently, young people are so destroyed by radical professors like me that they all hate their country. Apparently, America is saturated with traitors. Well, them and illegal immigrants.

OK, fine. So here's my question: what are these people so scared of, assuming they're really on the warpath and not just trying to get and keep listeners? Why the constant barrage of madness, the constant attacks on everybody with the slightest divergent ideas? Why the endless fussbudgeting around with other people's bedroom habits? Why the constant demands for more patriotism, more more more, with the likes of Michael Savage setting the rules for what patriotism is and how to display it?

I don't get it. By the world's standards, we're all pretty much rich and privileged. We mostly aren't in danger all the time, for one thing. And by and large, people behave pretty well.

So what's the Big Fear? Why the endless demands for political correctness, why the endless insistence on public worship, the constant personal attacks on other Americans who simply disagree?

Or, to put this another way, why do people think that we all need to be reminded daily of what most of us already know about this country?

Looks like demands for endless loyalty oaths to me, and I say, "Give EVERYBODY eat!" But there must be other explanations; what are they?

Probably the same reason you do, they think they're right. I mean, ask yourself why you're complaining. What are YOU so afraid of?

Ironically enough, with all the "invective" supposedly shouted by conservative talk show hosts, it's the leftists talk shows that play segments simulating the assassination of a sitting president. I don't recall Rush Limbaugh simulating shooting Clinton when he was in office. Physician heal thyself.

 

[MisterMike]

what's so bad, that it demands the sort of personal attacks, conspiracy fantasies, and invective that we see all the time these days, especially from people who identify themselves as right-wingers, conservatives, Republicans, and fundamentalists?

Again, your question is baseless. You may see that in a few radio talk show hosts, op-ed columns and TV personalities. Hmmm, what do they all have in common?

Pretty sad you can only see one side of it though. One would have thought more of the poster. Or maybe you do, but feel it is justified since all the personal attacks on the President, conspiricay theories about the war and invective from those who identify themselves as Democrats, liberals and secularists is all because of the war?

Do you honestly expect both side to play nice now? The divide is only widening.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Theres enough of that **** to go around on both sides. Why is it that everything that comes out of liberal mouths seems to be "America sucks because...", "Our way of life is wrong because..."?

Whats wrong with conservatives?

http://www.dogchurch.org/scriptorium/RightState.htm


What wrong with Liberals?

http://www.dogchurch.org/scriptorium/LeftState.htm

Excellent points brought up in both articles. A clear, more concise,and more balanced critique of modern american political leanings than this thread started with.

 

[Tgace]

Excellent points brought up in both articles. A clear, more concise,and more balanced critique of modern american political leanings than this thread started with.

Yeah, I like a lot of what the guy has to say, on both sides.

The problem with the liberals is not Secular Humanism, it's moral relativism, the idea that the Good is unknowable. The fallacy of that idea is that the Bad is knowable, and throughout human history, we have known it often and well. Moral relativism just isn't up to dealing with hard-core evil.

But the liberal brand of moral relativism isn't so much relative as perfectionist. They have a "sense" of the Good, but nobody comes anywhere close to meeting it. I met a young very liberal musician who adamantly argued that there was no fundamental difference between the actions of the Soviet Union and the actions of the United States. That we did not militarily occupy or subjugate our allies (as did the Soviets — remember Germany and Japan were our enemies in WW II), that we did not institute artificial famine, killing millions of our own citizens to make economic "progress" (as did the Soviets), etc., seemed to make no impression on him. I'll admit that he is an extreme case, but his type is common. He denies that the United States is basically good, because it is imperfect. He prefers to bemoan the flaws in this country rather than consider ways to use the country's strengths to correct them. (He also forgets that international politics is like the politics of a dysfunctional family - and that acting sane when everyone else is acting crazy can put you at a disadvantage.)

This attitude is partly based on a kind of learned helplessness that comes from a distorted individualism. If you as an individual can't do anything about the evils you see in the world, you tend to think the problems are insoluble, and give up. This defeatist attitude amounts to amnesia regarding the successful community organizing by many liberals in the 1960's and 1970's. Of course you can't do anything about social, national, or global problems by yourself. You have to act in community with your fellow human beings. And if your fellow human beings simply do not form a community, you have to create it.[23]

Which encapsulates 99% of the arguments Ive had on this forum regarding my view of America vs. how I perceive others views based on their arguments.

And even though there are other points I disagree with, like his capitol punishment stance, I can accept his viewpoint because there are many other points I do agree with. Maybe thats part of the issue here. Many people here seem to be at odds on EVERY issue....