Why does it take so long to get a Black Belt in most systems?

[kenpo tiger]

It isn't about the belt.

It's about learning the basics of your art, training to get the mechanics set, and then, once you reach black belt, beginning to perfect and master your art.

Time and teaching. KT

 

[brothershaw]

Here is the real problem/issue with comparison of time frames.
Somes styles especially those that are technique based( you have to know x amount of techniques to move on) cant be truly compared time frame wise to styles that are more principal based ( and taught principal based).
The person learning a more technique based style may upfront after a couple of years appear to have more skill and knowledge in their bag, opposed to a person who is learning more from a principle base that they have to pull applications from. In plainer english the less esoteric the style the easier it may APPEAR or be to have some skill in a shorter period of time. Over the long haul it MAY even out.
Even comparing learning aikido techniques to jujitsu techniques, for promotion over time you might be expected to have alot more principles incorporated into your aikido techniques or waza than for a given jujitsu technique generally speaking.
So the real issue in time for black belt or instructor level is how much stuff is your instructor trying to teach you, and what are they looking for in your execution. THe more complex things included ( internalization, chi/ki, unbalancing etc, and the less general strength, and athleticism involved the longer its going to take.
Not to say you necesarily need alot of complex stuff to defend yourself.

 

[brothershaw]

Perhaps a bigger thing to think about, is not how long it will take to get to black but will I be able to do this when i am 50 or 60?

 

[Disco]

Perhaps a bigger thing to think about, is not how long it will take to get to black but will I be able to do this when i am 50 or 60?

Good question, which has a deverse answer. First and foremost, it would depend upon the individual and how protective they are/were during their training. Secondly, it depends upon the particular discipline one studies. The harder styles, to me anyway, the ones where the body takes a lot of punishment; i.e. Judo, Hapkido, Jujitsu and the like, will take their toll on the body and limit many in the older years. As for all the instant black belts running around out there, I can't change what has transpired and honestly I really don't give a darn anymore. The old saying that cream will rise to the top, comes to mind. People don't even have to train anymore if they have a computer. Just print out a certificate and get a DVD and there you go. Bottom line to all this rant is you do what's right for you. If you believe in the arts and really want to train, then you will. If your on the other side of the coin, then it all depends on what the meaning of is - is?

 

[Phoenix44]

I don't mind if you get a black belt in 2 years--as long as you understand that you've only been training for 2 years. No, I don't believe that the 2-year black belt is as skilled, overall, as a green belt who's trained for 5 years. The belt doesn't confer the skill.

In our school it takes 5 years plus to get a black belt. Our black belt means we have achieved a degree of control over the BASICS of our art, so that we can start our real training in application and advanced technique. It doesn't mean we're Bruce Lee.

Our school's been around for 35 years. I can count on my fingers how many black belts we have. We have 4 nidans--each have trained 15 years plus. And only our director is above that.

Fact is, you can buy a black belt for about 5 bucks.

 

[brothershaw]

"Fact is, you can buy a black belt for about 5 bucks."
Can that be Fed-Ex'd I would hate to have to wait 2 weeks for my black belt to show up in the mail.

Just kidding!!

 

[old sensei]

The length of time it takes to achieve a black belt, I believe is according to the skill level of the student. I had one student, who at 16, earned his BB in three years.- He ate and drank Shotokan Karate, and literally slept in his gi. They were private lessons, several times a week and at the end, he was catching arrows shot at him, just for practice! I had three other karateka who earned their BB in 18 months, which sounds like too short a time, I know, but they learned kata faster than anyone I have ever seen and they practiced together every day, even on class days- I had three other black belts from my yudanshakai judge their test and all agreeed with the rank. Black belt is according to skill level and feeling the art, and anyone, regardless of time in the dojo, who has achieved that standard, has earned it.

 

[Deaf Smith]

why does it take so long to get a black belt in most martial arts systems? I mean when people find out it only usually takes 1 1/2 to 2 years to get a black belt in the system i take they freak out and say they have been in their system 6 years and still dont have a black belt. not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts, yet they have been in the martial arts 10 times longer, can someone explain this to me?

Thanks

1.5 to 2 years? Long? No Spirit, that isn't long. That's short. That' sadly short. That cheepens the term 'black belt'.

Deaf

 

[exile]

not to be concieted or anything but most of the time these 6 years vets arent even as good as our middle ranking belts

Ummm.... how do you know that they're not as good, SF? They've been doing it 6 years and your people have been doing it a year or so at the same training frequency, and your people are better than they are? Strong claim—what's your evidence here?

1.5 to 2 years? Long? No Spirit, that isn't long. That's short. That' sadly short. That cheepens the term 'black belt'.
Deaf

Yeah. That's like an 18 month 'Ph.D' or a two year 'M.D.' The concept of a black belt is tied to the idea that you have a grasp on the basics of your system to enough of an extent that you have the basic competence to start exploring on your own, specializing and developing your knowledge increasingly independently. My experience is, dedicated and frequent practice and training for 4 years and up, no less, can get you there in any of the TMAs I know anything about—there's that much depth and richness to the basics in such systems. I'm going to be pretty skeptical of anyone who tells me that a beginner in karate, TKD, TSD, Hapkido or any other belt-based MA should be able to get that kind of grasp of the basics in 18 months or so. If your system says it's possible in that system, that tells me something about the depth of your system which isn't very flattering. I could be wrong, sure, and I'm willing to have my mind changed. But you have a big burden of proof and a hell of a lot of tight reasoning to do before you persuade me—or anyone else, I suspect.

 

[sgtmac_46]

Get your Black Belt in 12 easy lessons! :BSmeter: :bs:

It's not 'impossible' to get a black belt in 1/2 to 2 years......but lets just say if there's a school full of such black belts.......MCDOJO!

 

[newy085]

Check the date on the last post before today. Someone could have started on that day, and got their 1st Dan in any art.

Anyway, while we are on the topic, I don't think black belts across styles should be compared. All a black belts means is that you have a solid ground in the basics of that art. If the instructors believe it only takes 1 year to understand what there art has to offer, fine by them. I also think that the amount of training, and the level of understanding, as well as their proficiency they can show after the time spent training is more of a determining factor.

 

[exile]

Check the date on the last post before today. Someone could have started on that day, and got their 1st Dan in any art.

Yeah, but what the OP suggested is that that length of time is unreasonably long. The latest discussion is I think just revisiting the question of how much time is in fact reasonable to expect for mastery of the basics in a MA with any substance.

Anyway, while we are on the topic, I don't think black belts across styles should be compared.

Maybe not, but that's exactly what you're doing with your immediately following comment (which I happen to agree with completely):

All a black belts means is that you have a solid ground in the basics of that art.

Right. So that tells you something about MA 1, where a grasp of the basics takes you 4 years on a give training frequency, as vs. MA 2, where a comparable grasp takes you a year and a half or so.

If the instructors believe it only takes 1 year to understand what there art has to offer, fine by them. I also think that the amount of training, and the level of understanding, as well as their proficiency they can show after the time spent training is more of a determining factor.

A determining factor of what? More likely, level of understanding and proficiency are outcomes, not determining factors. Sure, people (including instructors) are free to think whatever they want to think... but if a grasp of the basics takes a third the time in one system as in another, assuming a given training frequency and comparably talented beginners in both, what exactly does it say about the content of the system when a student has mastered the basics of one in a third the time of the other?

 

[newy085]

A determining factor of what? More likely, level of understanding and proficiency are outcomes, not determining factors. Sure, people (including instructors) are free to think whatever they want to think... but if a grasp of the basics takes a third the time in one system as in another, assuming a given training frequency and comparably talented beginners in both, what exactly does it say about the content of the system when a student has mastered the basics of one in a third the time of the other?

Sorry, just re-read my post again and it was pretty disjointed, and really didn't say where I was coming from. That is the point that I was trying to make. There are some arts with not much content and there are others with lots of content.

I'm not really sure of what you mean by saying that understanding and proficiency are outcomes. In my way of thinking a solid understanding of the art you are studying, and the ability to perform the art a high level are factors that should be considered as to whether a student is deserving of a black belt. That is why I stated them as the determing factors of the belt, instead of time spent training.

This isn't the place to discuss it but it goes along the line of would you rather have 100 techniques that you could do ok, or 10 that you could do excellent. Either that or it could just be a belt factory.

 

[newy085]

Oh and I'm not sure if you got that my first sentence was meant to be a joke. I think it is a good question to look back into, especially since I wasn't around here then.

 

[HM2PAC]

newy wrote:

would you rather have 100 techniques that you could do ok, or 10 that you could do excellent. Either that or it could just be a belt factory.

Excellent point.

When I was in HS wrestling, there was a nearby school that taught only 2 take-downs. Each wrestler learned the basic single-leg and the basic double-leg. And that was all they ever did.

The problem was, you could rarely stop them from executing perfectly. They never got involved with upper body takedowns, fireman carries, or anything flashy. They would not be sucked into doing anything dumb. They just waited until the time was right and capitalized.

At the freshman level they were good, but their seniors were unstoppable. Four years of the same thing over and over and over. Lots of state champs out of that school.

 

[newy085]

newy wrote:


Excellent point.

When I was in HS wrestling, there was a nearby school that taught only 2 take-downs. Each wrestler learned the basic single-leg and the basic double-leg. And that was all they ever did.

The problem was, you could rarely stop them from executing perfectly. They never got involved with upper body takedowns, fireman carries, or anything flashy. They would not be sucked into doing anything dumb. They just waited until the time was right and capitalized.

At the freshman level they were good, but their seniors were unstoppable. Four years of the same thing over and over and over. Lots of state champs out of that school.

That is the perfect post to show how a person can be at a black belt level quicker becuase there is less content in the system. It actually makes the other art more effective in the early stages. However, imagine if they could execute all the other techniques to that level. It would take a lot longer, but they would be unstoppable.

 

[Big Don]

Why does it take so long to get a Black Belt in most systems?

This question reminds me of the old joke:
Why does divorce cost so much?
Because it is worth it.

 

[Cryozombie]

newy wrote:


Excellent point.

When I was in HS wrestling, there was a nearby school that taught only 2 take-downs. Each wrestler learned the basic single-leg and the basic double-leg. And that was all they ever did.

The problem was, you could rarely stop them from executing perfectly. They never got involved with upper body takedowns, fireman carries, or anything flashy. They would not be sucked into doing anything dumb. They just waited until the time was right and capitalized.

At the freshman level they were good, but their seniors were unstoppable. Four years of the same thing over and over and over. Lots of state champs out of that school.

Thats great training, and works well, UNTIL you run across the school/artist that practices preventing/reversing/countering those techniques... then you are left with... what exactly?

A hammer and a wrench are great tools, until you need a saw.

would you rather have 100 techniques that you could do ok, or 10 that you could do excellent.

Id prefer 5 I could do excellent, and 95 I can do ok. It's a better balance.

 

[sgtmac_46]

That is the perfect post to show how a person can be at a black belt level quicker becuase there is less content in the system. It actually makes the other art more effective in the early stages. However, imagine if they could execute all the other techniques to that level. It would take a lot longer, but they would be unstoppable.

Which sounds better in theory than in practice......in reality it's why boxers and muay thai fighters win fights.......they practice a half dozen or so techniques to the point of perfection.........or as Bruce Lee said

“I fear not the man who has practiced 10,000 kicks once, but I fear the man who has practiced one kick 10,000 times.” - Bruce Lee

While it's good to know a number of techniques in order to teach others to find which techniques work best for them, in practice you will only master a few that work very well for you.

That's not the say that one shouldn't study a wide variety of responses.......but the result is the ability to deal with a BROADER spectrum of situations......not to deal with specific situations better. For example, someone who has studied a broad spectrum of techniques who enters a boxing ring under those conditions is likely to lose to a boxer who has spent the same time studying boxing.

 

[HM2PAC]

newy wrote:

That is the perfect post to show how a person can be at a black belt level quicker because there is less content in the system. It actually makes the other art more effective in the early stages. However, imagine if they could execute all the other techniques to that level. It would take a lot longer, but they would be unstoppable.

Yes, but I was only talking about their take-downs. They spent most of their effort on mat work.

Cryozombie wrote:

Thats great training, and works well, UNTIL you run across the school/artist that practices preventing/reversing/countering those techniques... then you are left with... what exactly?

Then you are left with a really good match-up.



In retrospect my point to bring up the HS wrestling was this:

1. They knew the basics, and executed them in such fashion that counters were many times unproductive. Did they get countered? Of course, but they usually had the upper hand.

2. We new what they were going to do. Everyone knew what they were going to do. We practiced counters, not just for them, but for everyone. In the end, speed kills and oftentimes they were just too fast.

Looking back on these wrestlers, many of them had been on mats since they were 5 or 6. These were the guys who could bend you into something Gumby-esque. I would liken them to BB's that take a long time. But some of their wrestlers started in HS, and with good intensive training became proficient themselves.