Multiple Adversary Training. And why it fails?

[FasterthanDeath]

Now dont get me wrong, I am not saying that All MAT programs fail. I have seen only a few and only one was succsessful ( Under a controlled enviroment.) I hate to bring this back up but, At that Tenjindo belt test, I saw the Soke spar for 3 mins against 3 opponents. If they got hit with a good shot, they have to drop down for 15 sec. And if one of them took him to the ground the other two were to back off and they could fight for 30 sec. Ok, rules sound ok, but when I saw this I already began to notice the problems. They were in full fighting gear. Head guards, shin guards, arm guards. And if this is a Advanced Belt Test, I think that Full Contact would be allowed. They didnt say you could do it, but they also didnt say you couldnt do it. But for a test, and for good training, I would be going for the knockouts. The three people sparring him are 1. A brown belt from his school. 2. A female brown belt from his school, who happens to be his wife. 3. A 3rd degree black belt from the TongIllo school. It starts and no clean hits from the Soke and he gets taken down in 30 sec. The same thing happens over and over again. Then they add another person, a 4th degree black belt and it gets worse. The Soke even gets taken out by a leg scissors take down. Now I think, that if he was trained in a system where he would take out adversaries when they attack him, he would of done better. But he didnt make any good or clean contact with his opponents or stay standing for more than 10 sec. I have seen many MAT programs like this and this happens all the time. The one time it didnt happen is where a Kenpo student was going for his 3rd degree black and he had to fight 4 people. They had no pads on at all. I lie, they had cups. And he had to fight them off or fight them until they were ALL on the ground and could not get up for a count of 3, or for 3 mins. He got hit twice, and in 32 sec, dropped all of his opponents, and none of them could get up for a count of 3, 5 or even 20!!! Your thoughts on some programs or training ideas that should be incorporated in a system and those that should be left out.

 

[Mark Weiser]

The real life issue of lawsuits and being a MA Instructor you have this issue. You have to make very clear in any liablity wavier that at certain belt level testing is full contact and list those requirements additionally you should include the release of any injury that may occur in this belt testing.

The more realistic the training the better off you are in combat. In the Military we had a saying the more you sweat in training the less you bled in combat. The Instructor has a responsiblity to his students if your a system that claims to be self-defensive to ensure that training is valid and viable to street combat.

One way is preparing the mind by using role playing and combining that with MA training. Lets say your a female the Instrutor places two heavy sacks in your arms and a set of keys. You are told that you are attempting to unlock the car door and you are attacked from behind(real world problem this happens a lot to female victims in parking lots and at home)

You train your female students how to react to the problem. Just an example.

Sincerely,
Mark E. Weiser

 

[DoxN4cer]

Realism

Realism

Realism


MAT tactics have to be hard and fast. There's no time to hit one opponenet 17 times while the other two close in on you.

Other factors need to be taght as well: mitgiation for one. Knowing how to keep the opponenets at a disadvantage is absolutely necessary. It's better to teach your students to be proactive rather than reactive.

 

[8253]

I believe that if you train properly it is possible to survive an attack by multiple opponents. In training for multiple opponents we try to go as hard as possible without causing injury. During this training we are taught to strike in vital places first (throat, groin, breaking joints, etc.) Due to the nature of these particular strikes unfortunately you cant really get any realism out of the training. However it is still good practice to get the movements flowing together.

 

[loki09789]

99% of the time in civilian self defense that need/purpose that the student has is ESCAPE. Multiple opponent training should be to teach students how do escape instead of 'win' a MAT. That takes realism within the safe boundaries of a training class. Doxn4cer alluded to this when he mentioned keeping the MAT at a disadvantage. Someone else alluded to it when he/she specified 'survive' instead of 'win' a MAT situation. The heavy bag drill is a good drill, don't remember who posted that.

First, train to make good judgements BEFORE you have to swing on MAT's. Then, if you have to, train to use EVERYTHING around you (terrain, obstacles, environmental weapons, psychological games...) that you can to create time for planning and distance to allow for you to escape/survive. Sometimes that will mean brutal/lethal force level responses and sometimes that will mean running like a little girl with your hair on fire.....

It ain't about winning.
Use your brains first to read the situation and difuse/avoid it.
Use your brains to make well timed and well placed force responses so that you are creating escape/survival possibilities.
Use your brain after to ensure you have a good escape plan, report it to LEO and get treatment if needed.

Training ONLY to deal with MAT's at the force/lethal force stage is nothing more than sparring with a twist - regardless of the rules. Training that phase as part of the whole shabang will create more 'wholistic skill'

 

[Phoenix44]

Doxn4cer and Loki make good points. Real "self-defense" isn't about knockouts, maiming, or beating people senseless. It's about creating an opening, and getting out of there. That may be as simple as avoiding the situation, talking yourself out of it, positioning yourself properly, temporarily distracting one or more of your attackers, using one attacker as a shield, or pushing one attacker into another and then GETTING THE HECK OUT OF THERE.

I've done full contact padded attacker training, and it is definitely of value, but it's not the only way to practice self-defense training.