Who is Who in Modern Arnis?

[Bob Hubbard]

Ok, I'm thinking on this, and started wondering.

I know Remy gave a number of people titles over the years, but I can't think on who they all are. Seeing as we've got a number of folks from various eras here, and with the interest and research thats gone on recently (Symposium, lineage searches, etc) I figured I'd ask.


This is what I've got:

6 Datus:
- Shishir Inocalla
- Kelly Worden
- Dieter Knüttel
- David Hoffman
- Bong Jornales
- Tim Hartman

7 Masters of TapiTapi:
- Randi Schea
- James Ladis
- Chuck Gauss
- Gaby Roloff
- Ken Smith
- Brian Zawilinski
- Jeff Delaney

Senior Master:
- Dan Anderson (only SM I can recall)

Punong-Guro
- Tim Hartman (only RP PG I'm aware of)

I think Bram Frank had one, but can't recall it off hand.

I know theres also been a number of other titles. Can anyone shed some light on what they were and who has/had them? Also, if I've missed someone, or mislabled someone, please correct me.

Thanks!


(PS - no politics please. Much thanks! )

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

There is also Punong-Guro Myrlino Hufana.

 

[Liam_G]

There is also Senior Master Rodell Dagooc in the Philipines. Also, isn't Roland Dantes a Senior Master? Not totally sure who's who among the Filipino senior players ...

Respects,
Liam

 

[Guro Harold]

Hi Liam,

Roland Dantes is definitely a Senior Master.

To All,

Isn't Kelly Worden compiling a super-list like this?

Thanks,

Palusut

 

[Bob Hubbard]

If I remember right, Kellys list is of a broader nature, and more lineage oriented. I -think- he was trying to get a list of all of Remys blackbelts.

I may be mistaken though.

Thanks for the info guys, keep it comin!

 

[Dan Anderson]

Yes,
Kelly did a great job of compiling a list of RP's black belts and then one day when I had waaaaaaaay too much time on my hands, I put them in alphabetical groupings. Go to his website for the full list. I think in some of the earlier postings the titles/ranks of the seniors in the PI are listed.

I also think Michael Bates was given the title of Jr. Professor.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
Ok, I'm thinking on this, and started wondering.

I know Remy gave a number of people titles over the years, but I can't think on who they all are. Seeing as we've got a number of folks from various eras here, and with the interest and research thats gone on recently (Symposium, lineage searches, etc) I figured I'd ask.


This is what I've got:

6 Datus:
- Shishir Inocalla
- Kelly Worden
- Dieter Knüttel
- David Hoffman
- Bong Jornales
- Tim Hartman

7 Masters of TapiTapi:
- Randi Schea
- James Ladis
- Chuck Gauss
- Gaby Roloff
- Ken Smith
- Brian Zawilinski
- Jeff Delaney

Senior Master:
- Dan Anderson (only SM I can recall)

Punong-Guro
- Tim Hartman (only RP PG I'm aware of)

I think Bram Frank had one, but can't recall it off hand.

I know theres also been a number of other titles. Can anyone shed some light on what they were and who has/had them? Also, if I've missed someone, or mislabled someone, please correct me.

Thanks!


(PS - no politics please. Much thanks! )

PG Tom Bolden - not an appointment by Professor Presas, HOWEVER, recognized by Professor as a legitimate tile and head of his own system The American Modern Arnis Associates. At a seimar in NYC, araound 1997 or 1998, Professor introduced PG Bolden to GM Cacoy Canete by title and called him a Grand Master.

All of this was predicated on Professor's long association with professor Wally Jay, who was raised in Hawaii and crossed trained with GM Ardiano Emperado, GM Maraino Tiwanak, GM Florintino Pancipanci, GM Willian Chow and GM James Mitose.
Thus Professor Presas became very well informed about the Filipino- Hawaiian martail arts traditions of Jiu-jitsu, Kenpo and Eskrima. PG Bolden's linage is excellent! He is the inheritor or the Pancipanci Family System of Eskrima, which also has a very strong influence of the Filipino version of Silat. Professor Presas was acknowledging that background and skill level when he introduced PG Bolden to GM Canete by title.

the PG title translates into English as Senior Teacher. It is used to signify someone whoi is either the heir apparent to the grand mastership of a system or is actually the head of the system and for whatever reason chooses not to be called GM. Note that the late Rdgar Suluite (sp) of the Lamaco System used the PG title.

When Professor used the PG title and gave it's meaning as "teacher of teachers" he was down playing the true meaning
for his own reasons.

Other titles that have been used in Modern Arnis are "commissioner", "guardian", "protege", "datu", "motts" and
"technical assistants". He also giave out martial arts titles such as Jr. Master, Senior Master, and Jr. Professor.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

If anyone has a copy of the Filipino Martial Arts Magazine, Volume 4, Number 4, you can see the full page re-print of the MAFP certificate awarded to Tom Carnes, by Professor with the designation of Guardian and Master.

There is a tendency on the part of some people to totally dismiss Master Carnes and his statements regarding Modern Arnis and his association with the Presas, however, I have seen some of the footage that he has of Jose Presas, the father of Professor, Ernesto and Roberto. Master Carnes is the real deal! He might be difficult for some people to accept and his path is and continues to be different from most current Modern Arnis people, but Master Carnes knows what he is talking about from personal training experience with the Presas' in the Philippines.

One of the purposes of the Symposium is to discuss matters like this and to show documentation where it exists to support the claims. The fun behind the Sympopsium is that we all get to talk face to face, show our variations on the art and learn from others. It takes an open mind and a willingness to learn to be at this event. The closer it get the more I am looking forward to being a participant.

There will be some extras at the Symposium - as people make their final travel plans and get their wares ready for sale, the structure is developing very nicely. The espada y daga training sets are going to be beautiful and the live blade Master Instructor Sets are awesome.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Tom Carnes? Yeow! How many of the Professor's students did we never hear about?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[Bob Hubbard]

I apreciate the info.

For the sake of my inquiry, I have to limit the focus to those titles verifiably awarded by Remy.

Dr. B - What was the year that magazine article came out? I'm sadly not familiar with the publication.


Dr. B mentioned several other titles I don't recall seeing before.
"commissioner", "guardian", "protege", and "technical assistants". Also, "Jr. Master" Who were these given to?


:asian:

 

[Rich Parsons]

Originally posted by DoctorB
. . .

One of the purposes of the Symposium is to discuss matters like this and to show documentation where it exists to support the claims. The fun behind the Sympopsium is that we all get to talk face to face, show our variations on the art and learn from others. It takes an open mind and a willingness to learn to be at this event. The closer it get the more I am looking forward to being a participant.

. . .
Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

Jerome,

NOt trying to derail this thread, I have a question though?

Are the aprticipants, to bring their Paperwork with them? just to participate? I could see it for testing though.

. . .

 

[Dieter]

Hi,

in the Philippines there are of course some more Modern Arnis players with high degrees and titles.

As a matter of fact, the status is sometimes not very clear. I for myself would regard anything from 8th Dan and above as Grandmaster. But we had this discussion already in another thread I think.

Anyway, here are a few names with degrees and/or titles, that I saw being used.

Roberto Presas - 10th Dan/Grandmaster (in the Philippines elected as the successor of Professor Remy Presas)
Cristino Vasquez - 9th Dan/Senior Master/Grandmaster (I heared both being used)
Rene Tongson - 8th Dan/Senior Master
Rodel Dagooc - 8th Dan/Senior Master
Jerry de la Cruz - 8th Dan/Grandmaster
Victor Sanchez - 8th Dan/Grandmaster
Roland Dantes - 8th Dan/Senior Master
Pepito Robas - 8th Dan (not 100% sure)
Professor Armando Soteco - 7th Dan
Samuel Dulay - 7th Dan

As you can see, the use of titles with 8th and 9th Dans not consitsent in the Philppines. But why shoud this be different than in the US?
Jerry de la Cruz heads his own System "Arnis Cruzada", which is Modern Arnis based and Victror Sanchez is much into Lightning Scientific Arnis.

If you read the MARPPIO homepage carefully ad compare the described rimming of the belts with the pictures shown on the homepage you can only come to the following conclusion, even though it in not written anywhere:

Dr. Remy Presas Jr. - 9th Dan - Punong Guro
Mary Ann Presas 9th Dan/Punong Guro
Demetrio Presas - 9th Dan/Punong Guro

If you wonder, why Ernesto Presas is not in there, he is not regarded as part of the Modern Arnis family any more, because he strictly goes his Kombatan way. At least this is what I understood from many discussions with the different Masters in Manila.



This list is made out of observation and analyze from what I have seen, heared and read. It is most probably not complete and may even have mistakes, but this is what I think is correct with the knowledge I have up to now.


Best regards from Germany



Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Anris

 

[Dan Anderson]

Originally posted by Dieter

If you wonder, why Ernesto Presas is not in there, he is not regarded as part of the Modern Arnis family any more, because he strictly goes his Kombatan way. At least this is what I understood from many discussions with the different Masters in Manila.

Dieter Knüttel
Datu of Modern Anris

Hi Dieter,
I think this is so. I had a conversation with him a little over a year ago where he told me that Modern Arnis was a part of Kombatan.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Dan Anderson
Tom Carnes? Yeow! How many of the Professor's students did we never hear about?

Yours,
Dan Anderson

Hi Dan,

That is and has been my point is so many of the discussions that have gone down on this forum - there are many more people, titles and credentials with regard to Modern Arnis under Professor than any single person can know. It is not a matter of right and wrong, it is matter of having or not having certin pieces of information.

I have learned several things from reading posts by Rocky about some of the orginal Mid-western Modern Arnis players. Instead of getting upset and say in some manner or other that Rocky does not know what he's talking about, my position is THANKS for the information and names. That often fills in a hole or two in my knowledge base. Rocky is not going to lie about this stuff! Nor will I!

Tom Carnes can be difficult to communicate with, but his information is accurate. He verified for me that Bruce Juncnik, of Kosho Ryu Kempo fame, was one of the orginal commissioners of Modern Arnis in the late 1970's. I remembered an article in which that was mentioned, but I had lost the copy. Tom also named the other three people who held the title.

If people got into the art in the 1990's how can anyopne expect them to know about who was involved in the 1970's or early 1980's especially if those people dropped out and went in a dirfferent direction from Professor? The flip side of that is if people got into the art in the 1990's how can they tell us longer term people what the truth is or was in the 1970's and 1980's?

The Symposium is our chance to talk and share information. Who knows what else might come to light as we play together in Buffalo?

And yes, people, there are a couple of surprises in the offering.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Rich Parsons
Jerome,

NOt trying to derail this thread, I have a question though?

Are the aprticipants, to bring their Paperwork with them? just to participate? I could see it for testing though.

. . .

Not a problem, Rich. There is no need to bring documents except for people testing. The documents are to verify the last testing date and rank earned. If the testing were to be done within an organization the records would be available, but the Symposium presents a different set of problems.

Leave you paper at home.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[DoctorB]

Originally posted by Kaith Rustaz
I apreciate the info.

For the sake of my inquiry, I have to limit the focus to those titles verifiably awarded by Remy.

Dr. B - What was the year that magazine article came out? I'm sadly not familiar with the publication.


Dr. B mentioned several other titles I don't recall seeing before.
"commissioner", "guardian", "protege", and "technical assistants". Also, "Jr. Master" Who were these given to?


:asian:

The FMAM is published by Eliot Scherer (sp) out on Long Island, NY. You can locate the address via a search in google.com and the use the magazine title to get to their web page. The V4 #4 was published at the end of 2002.

I have put this information forward several times before:

Commissioner/guardian - Tom Carnes and Bruce Juncnik 1970's
Technical Assistants - Billy Bryant, Myself - 1991-3
Protege: Tim Hartman, Jim Ladis 1993 -5(?)

Modern Arnis Black Belt Society: Lee Lowery, Richard Roy, Tom Bolden and Rick Mitchell (1992). There is only one other person in this group, but I can not remember who it is.

Others will have to fill in other names for the various titles.

Jerome Barber, Ed.D.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

KEWL!

Danke! :asian:

 

[Datu Tim Hartman]

Originally posted by DoctorB
Protege: Tim Hartman 1993 -5(?)

In 1999 Professor started referring to me at the seminars as ONE of his successors.

 

[Dan Anderson]

Prof. mentioned to me in Atlanta, 1997, I was one of ten successors across the US. He did not mention whe the rest were at that time.

Yours,
Dan Anderson

 

[jaybacca72]

there were probably 10 like dan said,i heard remy say in Toronto 1999 that there was to be a board to carry on his art and renegade was said to be one of them. looking forward to meeting some of you in buffallo.
later
jay:asian: