When the kata is applied to self defense

[now disabled]

I looked over the fight record of Tsuneo Horiguchi, and Ueshiba is never recorded as one of his opponents. Additionally, the Kenshiro Abbe "victory" was a supposed meeting on a train where Ueshiba supposedly threw him on the ground by holding his finger.

Can you provide some objective sources for these claims?

Oh the tenryu statement is true and well documented ..................He also taught at the security personnel at the Aoyamma Imperial palace .....The incident between Kiyoshi Nakakura and Junichi Haga is well documented to have taken place all you need do is look ....and you might want to take a look at the Noma dojo pictures (there are over a thousand of them) (taken by a very very famous Kendoka Noma Hisashi) and he taught at several at the Japanese Military schools, just go look at the pics he was not the frail old man that you seem to think he was.

And the statements made about Kano are 100% true

And still you have not answered my question I asked you about Shikko !!!!!!!!!

 

[Hanzou]

Oh the tenryu statement is true and well documented ..................He also taught at the security personnel at the Aoyamma Imperial palace .....The incident between Kiyoshi Nakakura and Junichi Haga is well documented to have taken place all you need do is look ....and you might want to take a look at the Noma dojo pictures (there are over a thousand of them) (taken by a very very famous Kendoka Noma Hisashi) and he taught at several at the Japanese Military schools, just go look at the pics he was not the frail old man that you seem to think he was.

And the statements made about Kano are 100% true

And still you have not answered my question I asked you about Shikko !!!!!!!!!

Sorry, I don't believe that you can throw someone to ground who is holding your finger. I need more evidence beyond an anecdotal account by a devoted student.

 

[now disabled]

Sorry, I don't believe that you can throw someone to ground who is holding your finger. I need more evidence beyond an anecdotal account by a devoted student.

Haga was not a devoted student ....

and still you avoid answering about Shikko , are you scared that you actually don't know lol and are doing the usual and editing ?

 

[Hanzou]

Haga was not a devoted student ....

and still you avoid answering about Shikko , are you scared that you actually don't know lol and are doing the usual and editing ?

I was talking about Kenshiro Abbe.

 

[now disabled]

I was talking about Kenshiro Abbe.

Nice try but I didn't say anything abut abbe The names I mentioned were no his so try again


and still no answer on Skikko lol this thread was about Kata etc so I asked you about a Kata and you being the Kata bash boy I thought I'd give you a chance to bash again as after all it is Samurai knee walking is it not ?

 

[Hanzou]

Nice try but I didn't say anything abut abbe The names I mentioned were no his so try again

Correct. I was talking about Abbe in response to O'Malley. You decided to jump into that conversation to add more myths and legends to the pile without verifying the initial line of questioning.

and still no answer on Skikko lol this thread was about Kata etc so I asked you about a Kata and you being the Kata bash boy I thought I'd give you a chance to bash again as after all it is Samurai knee walking is it not ?

I don't give a rat's behind about "shikko" or whatever you call it.

 

[now disabled]

Correct. I was talking about Abbe in response to O'Malley. You decided to jump into that conversation to add more myths and legends to the pile without verifying the initial line of questioning.



I don't give a rat's behind about "shikko" or whatever you call it.

I jumped in ok


And you don't give a rats *** ok ...yet you are the one that says kata are useless etc etc etc or have I actually found a thin that you just may get seriously wrong ? like the comment in another place about people pouncing around in Kimono etc ....pray do tell which arts that say they are self defense actually use Kimono??? or is that just another thing you will edit out ?

You are the one that started this all about Kata yet you now don't give a rats ***!!!

 

[DaveB]

Just to put it out.there, here's my understanding of kata.

Kata have 3 main functions:
1. Technique practice - Kata let's you practice moving, stance and power generation under ideal conditions. A natural extention of this is the exercise and attribute development one gains through repetition.c

2. Technique and Combination libraries - Kata hold the techniques of the system and give sample combinations to explain their use.

3. Strategy and Tactics - the combinations embody the strategic principles as well as tricks and traps the creator found useful.
Strategy is how you fight. How you go from introduction to conflict to victory party.

In early training volume repetition of kata or kata segments is how you build coordination in newbs.

As coordination builds you push beyond the constraints of kata sequences with more difficult combinations, footwork drills, evasion drills, blocking drills, grappling drills and introduce impact through pads, bags, makiwara and Fred the indestructible heavy weight in the corner.

You explore the principles by applying the kata in partner exercises that start dead with template techniques and become more natural with live opposition.

You take these principles and techniques into sparring and hone them along with the attributes you've been developing.

The transition from solo kata to fighting is vital because thats the part where you start applying reality to the ideal form of the kata.

Kata in these later stages functions as technical support and study guide.

Now the above process is just one way. I like the idea of throwing newbs into sparring with big 24 ounce gloves alongside the kata process so the reality is right up front and their technique is refined in response to the weaknesses identified in sparring.

That being said much of the karate world has struggled to get to this model because the applications of their kata were lost. The "karate style " of fighting is an independently evolved system based on the shape of karate movement.

I can't speak for CMA like wing chunky.or Tai chi, but they generally just look like they focus on system specific skills while stuck in self affirming bubbles.

Ultimately adjust the training, adjust the outcome.

 

[now disabled]

Just to put it out.there, here's my understanding of kata.

Kata have 3 main functions:
1. Technique practice - Kata let's you practice moving, stance and power generation under ideal conditions. A natural extention of this is the exercise and attribute development one gains through repetition.c

2. Technique and Combination libraries - Kata hold the techniques of the system and give sample combinations to explain their use.

3. Strategy and Tactics - the combinations embody the strategic principles as well as tricks and traps the creator found useful.
Strategy is how you fight. How you go from introduction to conflict to victory party.

In early training volume repetition of kata or kata segments is how you build coordination in newbs.

As coordination builds you push beyond the constraints of kata sequences with more difficult combinations, footwork drills, evasion drills, blocking drills, grappling drills and introduce impact through pads, bags, makiwara and Fred the indestructible heavy weight in the corner.

You explore the principles by applying the kata in partner exercises that start dead with template techniques and become more natural with live opposition.

You take these principles and techniques into sparring and hone them along with the attributes you've been developing.

The transition from solo kata to fighting is vital because thats the part where you start applying reality to the ideal form of the kata.

Kata in these later stages functions as technical support and study guide.

Now the above process is just one way. I like the idea of throwing newbs into sparring with big 24 ounce gloves alongside the kata process so the reality is right up front and their technique is refined in response to the weaknesses identified in sparring.

That being said much of the karate world has struggled to get to this model because the applications of their kata were lost. The "karate style " of fighting is an independently evolved system based on the shape of karate movement.

I can't speak for CMA like wing chunky.or Tai chi, but they generally just look like they focus on system specific skills while stuck in self affirming bubbles.

Ultimately adjust the training, adjust the outcome.

There ya go @Hanzou

read digest and think it basically all there

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Don't kata/sets/forms teach you something about balance?

You

1. first develop technique through "partner drill".
2. then polish your technique through "solo drill" when partner is not available.

The order of develop first and polish it afterward is important. The nice thing about this approach is if your solo drill is the same as your partner drill, when you are doing your partner drill, you are already doing your solo drill.

If we use the following clip as example, do you want to teach your students the

1. application first and form later, or
2. form first and application later?

 

[LastGasp]

But surely if you don't know the form, you have nothing to apply?

OTOH, I remember from Lau Gar that our teacher would show us the individual techniques, and with them, demonstrate with a student how they were applied. So yes, I get what you mean.

But what this means is that you don't take the sets in isolation. They are part of the whole, and each training technique complements the others.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Frankly, I think @JowGaWolf could wipe the floor with most of them. He has displayed better functional fighting skill than they do, and he's not even a professional fighter.

Thanks for the kind words.

 

[paitingman]

I love kata. Have never had a problem sparring/fighting.

I just think a lot of people miss the point and leave out lots of other valuable training i.e. sparring and other helpful exercise.

It's great for its simplicity. You need nothing but space. You can explore so many different variations and mechanical timings. What am I flexing? Where is my weight in this moment? What about this way? What about THIS way? What am I thinking about? What am I NOT thinking about?
It's great exercise. THEN you need to go do all the other stuff.

It's great for the whole zen thing as well. Then again, you could go full zen mode hitting pads as well.

I believe it is helpful exercise when done right, but of course it can be left out.
Some people become great fighters without ever using a speedbag or skipping rope or even stretching haha, but many do it every day and see the value in it. I only compare them to these exercises because they are helpful, but can be left out.

It's not the end all be all, but I think if you train correctly you can see value in it and begin to enjoy for just what it is. You just have to understand what it isn't.

 

[paitingman]

Actually, I still like the speedbag comparison.

You can train kata over and over and become very skillful in this exercise.

You can also really up your game and speedbag and take it very far and have some sliiick moves.

Why? Why not? It's easy to fall in love with certain exercise or just training in general.
Will these skills you've built in kata or your very technical speedbag moves help you in fighting? Up to you. But there's no harm in it. Have fun.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

What do you need in fighting?

1. timing - Have good timing.
2. opportunity - Recognize opportunity,
3. angle - Catch right angle.
4. force - Use force.
5. balance - Have good balance.

Unfortunately, 1, 2, 3 cannot be trained through form. Without the reference of "opponent", timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning.

 

[paitingman]

What do you need in fighting?

1. timing - Have good timing.
2. opportunity - Recognize opportunity,
3. angle - Catch right angle.
4. force - Use force.
5. balance - Have good balance.

Unfortunately, 1, 2, 3 cannot be trained through form. Without the reference of "opponent", timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning.

I agree. Some people swear they train all 5 when training forms

 

[DaveB]

What do you need in fighting?

1. timing - Have good timing.
2. opportunity - Recognize opportunity,
3. angle - Catch right angle.
4. force - Use force.
5. balance - Have good balance.

Unfortunately, 1, 2, 3 cannot be trained through form. Without the reference of "opponent", timing, opportunity, and angle will have no meaning.

Absolutely right, but notice that nothing in there is specific to one art, nor is anything excluded by any art.

Thus we can conclude that fighting is its own skill, separate to:
power generation,
coordination,
tactics or attribute building,

All of which are also universal elements of martial arts, but which are trained through solo forms.

 

[DaveB]

I agree. Some people swear they train all 5 when training forms

A large part of forms training is visualisation and through visualisation.you could possibly gain some benefits towards those elements of combat. Sports science certainly recommends visualisation and has proven it beneficial.

Obviously you need to have experience of fighting to visualise something realistic, but we've established that the forms without fighting crowd are a minority that get talked about a lot but who are very hard to find in reality.

On that note I'd like to suggest another possibility/probably true concern.
People like that tai chi master who got beat up are assumed to never spar.

I wonder if the issue isn't more often just sparring in a limited pool in a very particular style. For example wing chun chi sau is not sparring, but it sure feels like it!

You deal and deal with force, find openings, use footwork and timing and can come out of a session battered and bruised.

It's pretty easy to do a few one step drills where you simultaneously block and strike against a ranged attack, find yourself in chi sau range where the actual struggle begins, and think you know about fighting, if that is all you've experienced.

 

[O'Malley]

I looked over the fight record of Tsuneo Horiguchi, and Ueshiba is never recorded as one of his opponents. Additionally, the Kenshiro Abbe "victory" was a supposed meeting on a train where Ueshiba supposedly threw him on the ground by holding his finger.

Can you provide some objective sources for these claims?

Oops didn't see that answer.

I think it is quite natural that Ueshiba would not appear on Horiguchi's boxing fight record since Ueshiba was not a boxer. However, Horiguchi liked to cross-train and used to go to dojos of famous masters to fight/spar with them, he has reportedly done so with Choki Motobu (karate) and Kyuzo Mifune (judo) so that encounter is not unlikely to have happened, though I'll admit that the only source for it are students of Ueshiba.

For the encounter between Kenshiro Abbe and Morihei Ueshiba, it is recounted by Henry Ellis who heard it from his teacher (Abbe) himself. Abbe met Ueshiba in a train and the old man said "now please break my finger since you are so strong". Abbe grabbed the finger, couldn't break it and got slammed into the ground and immobilized by Ueshiba. Abbe then asked to become Ueshiba's student. Kenshiro Abbe, a judo champion famous for defeating Masahiko Kimura and a man used to live fighting and competition against the best judoka, used to tell people that he was incapable of breaking Osensei's finger.

One could also cite Yasuhiro Konishi, famous karate teacher that said that Ueshiba was the best martial artist he ever met, or Shoji Nishio, a martial arts genius that held high ranks in both judo and karate and yet decided to study and teach aikido after he saw and felt how great Osensei was. He came to see him with his own eyes after his karate teacher said Ueshiba was a "phantom". "I was amazed that there was someone that even Sodeyama Sensei couldn’t strike. It was O-Sensei [Morihei Ueshiba]… Anyway, I went to see aikido and immediately joined the dojo. I was told to go and take a look at aikido, but I never went back to karate!"

And there are countless examples of famous, recognized martial arts experts from all kinds of backgrounds that, upon seeing or fighting with Ueshiba, said "ok this guy's the best martial artist I've ever met". My point is that it is very difficult to believe that all of them were gullible people who could not distinguish a fake master.

All clues point to Ueshiba being the real deal.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I can write down at least 230 different throws from 62 different categories. Just the "foot sweep", there are over 35 different ways to do it.

It's the different contact points. For example, the "hip throw" can be executed by using your arm to:

- wrap around the waist.
- wrap around the head.
- under hook the shoulder.
- over hook the shoulder.
- palm smash behind the head.
- ...

Yes. That's what I was saying. I wouldn't count that as 35 different throws, but 35 ways to use the foot sweep. It's semantics, is all.