When the kata is applied to self defense

[Hanzou]

I'm not interested in discussing Pranin's point of view. I just rectified what I saw as a misinterpretation of what was written.

There was no misinterpretation. He clearly views certain arts in a derogatory and dismissive way.

For the Xth time, not all the people who praised Ueshiba were his disciples:

Fair point, but individuals like Kano had a vested interest in Ueshiba becoming successful, so again, we can't really use such people as an objective source.

And, again, how do you explain the fact that high ranked experts from other styles threw everything away just to study his martial art and never went back?

I don't know whether you are doing it on purpose or if you have reading comprehension problems (I don't mean it in a derogatory way, English is not my mother language either) but could you please make some efforts to stop ignoring half of the posts you reply to by throwing generalized statements? That's not an honest way of discussing a topic and, frankly, it's annoying.

Hou Yaunjia was widely revered by his peers and contemporaries in China at the turn of the century. According to those same sources (all high ranking kung fu practicioners) he defeated multiple European, Japanese, and American fighters, and he was eventually poisoned by the Japanese so that he wouldn't embarrass their top fighter. To this day, he is widely regarded as a national hero in China and among the Chinese martial art community. There's even been films made about his exploits (Fearless).

Unfortunately, when we actually do scholarly research utilizing corroborating sources, we discover that he actually didn't fight anyone, and instead of being poisoned by the Japanese, he was more than likely poisoned by traditional Chinese medicine.

I place Ueshiba in a similar category; A whole lot of fantastical folk tales that would make a wonderful martial art film, but not a whole lot backed by actual evidence.

Lol i tell you what then next time I am stateside you arrange mat time and you can perform your amazing skills on me ok lol ....no challenge I would just like to see these super skills lol

Aren't you disabled?

 

[now disabled]

There was no misinterpretation. He clearly views certain arts in a derogatory and dismissive way.



Fair point, but individuals like Kano had a vested interest in Ueshiba becoming successful, so again, we can't really use such people as an objective source.



Hou Yaunjia was widely revered by his peers and contemporaries in China at the turn of the century. According to those same sources (all high ranking kung fu practicioners) he defeated multiple European, Japanese, and American fighters, and he was eventually poisoned by the Japanese so that he wouldn't embarrass their top fighter. To this day, he is widely regarded as a national hero in China and among the Chinese martial art community. There's even been films made about his exploits (Fearless).

Unfortunately, when we actually do scholarly research utilizing corroborating sources, we discover that he actually didn't fight anyone, and instead of being poisoned by the Japanese, he was more than likely poisoned by traditional Chinese medicine.

I place Ueshiba in a similar category; A whole lot of fantastical folk tales that would make a wonderful martial art film, but not a whole lot backed by actual evidence.



Aren't you disabled?

Yes I am but I am well sure that I could cope with you lol


You are amazing lol scholarly research oh please sorry but your research is far far from that ....you pick only points you want to make and ignore things you do not want to

And saying Ueshiba Morihei is compared to a myth is really just plain .......................well I canot find words that they will not block out here.


Really how much Aikido have you ever done ? or is that another thing you will avoid answering ?

 

[pdg]

You don't need a tape of me taking down an Aikidoka using wrestling/grappling to show what I say is true. Taped evidence already exists.

Taped evidence of you doing it?

Because saying someone else can do it is kind of irrelevant.

 

[Hanzou]

Yes I am but I am well sure that I could cope with you lol

Okie dokie.

You are amazing lol scholarly research oh please sorry but your research is far far from that ....you pick only points you want to make and ignore things you do not want to

And saying Ueshiba Morihei is compared to a myth is really just plain .......................well I canot find words that they will not block out here.

I was merely comparing Ueshiba's exploits to other other Asian urban legends.

Really how much Aikido have you ever done ? or is that another thing you will avoid answering ?

I've taken a few classes. That's rather irrelevant to the conversation don't you think?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

There was no misinterpretation. He clearly views certain arts in a derogatory and dismissive way.

I admittedly read the piece quickly, but I didn't see that. He seemed to be talking about the approach of those seeking instruction, and talking about movie flash and its effect upon their expectations, not about actual martial arts.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

@Hanzou, serious invitation: if you find yourself in my corner of the world, give a shout. One or both of us could learn from some play time.

If you promise not to attack my knees when you take me down, I promise not to scream like a child with a scraped elbow.

 

[Hanzou]

I admittedly read the piece quickly, but I didn't see that. He seemed to be talking about the approach of those seeking instruction, and talking about movie flash and its effect upon their expectations, not about actual martial arts.

Very well, perhaps I took it wrong. That entire passage rubbed me the wrong way.

@Hanzou, serious invitation: if you find yourself in my corner of the world, give a shout. One or both of us could learn from some play time.

I'll keep that in mind. I'm currently on the mend, but I'll be very interested in visiting a few TMA schools once I'm back in fighting shape.

If you promise not to attack my knees when you take me down, I promise not to scream like a child with a scraped elbow.

Now where would the fun be in that?

 

[Tony Dismukes]

Putting aside some obviously exaggerated legends, it's entirely plausible that Ueshiba may have been a tough fighter in his younger years. (Before he got old and had ukes taking no-touch dives for him.) Certainly there were some students who had already proven themselves in legitimate competition who saw enough value in what he did to come learn from him. Kenshiro Abbe once beat Kimura in shiai and you don't get much more legit than that.

Whatever the truth of Ueshiba's fighting ability, the teaching methodology he used does not seem to have been adequate for passing down his skills. I'm sure there are aikidoka who can fight, but I wouldn't feel comfortable wandering into a random Aikido dojo and assuming the instructor had solid combative ability. In contrast, there are many BJJ practitioners today who are more skilled that Helio Gracie ever was. Techniques matter, but teaching and training methodology matter much more.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Yes. That's what I was saying. I wouldn't count that as 35 different throws, but 35 ways to use the foot sweep. It's semantics, is all.

If we define "single leg" as to obtain your opponents leading leg into your hand, you can use both hands to get that leg (the most common on that wrestlers like to use).

You can also use one hand to push your opponent's shoulder and use:

- one hand to get that leg.
- one knee to strike that leg.
- one leg to scoop that leg.
- one leg to hook that leg.
- one leg to sweep that leg.
- ...

Which semantics do you prefer to use here?

 

[Gerry Seymour]

If we define "single leg" as to obtain your opponents leading leg into your hand, you can use both hands to get that leg (the most common on that wrestlers like to use).

You can also use one hand to push your opponent's shoulder and use:

- one hand to get that leg.
- one knee to strike that leg.
- one leg to scoop that leg.
- one leg to hook that leg.
- one leg to sweep that leg.
- ...

Which semantics do you prefer to use here?

EDIT: CLearly my head is still slow. I misread the entire list and had to amend my reply.

The last 4 would all be "Leg Sweep" to me. The other would be variation of "single leg". Some arts (like Judo) would probably have discrete names for each.

I can't keep track of the Judo techniques that we consider fall under the technique "Leg Sweep" - we don't care if it's one leg or two, forward or backward (for either uke or nage), off to the side or over the hip. If the leg is swept, it's a "Leg Sweep". I'm so used to that approach, I tend to view stuff in related batches, rather than discrete techniques.

 

[JowGaWolf]

@Hanzou, serious invitation: if you find yourself in my corner of the world, give a shout. One or both of us could learn from some play time.

If you promise not to attack my knees when you take me down, I promise not to scream like a child with a scraped elbow.

ha ha ha.. let me know when that happens, I'll bring some ice, my gear, and a sympathy card lol.

I'm pretty sure you won't need it. So I'll just go ahead and put Hanzou's name on it.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I can't keep track of the Judo techniques that we consider fall under the technique "Leg Sweep" - we don't care if it's one leg or two, forward or backward (for either uke or nage), off to the side or over the hip. If the leg is swept, it's a "Leg Sweep". I'm so used to that approach, I tend to view stuff in related batches, rather than discrete techniques.

By using your approach, when you swing your

- arm, you will call it "arm swing". A hook punch and an uppercut are both arm swing.
- leg, you will call it "leg sweep". A cut, hook, spring, lift, scoop, break, sweep, ... are all leg sweep.

 

[JP3]

@Hanzou, serious invitation: if you find yourself in my corner of the world, give a shout. One or both of us could learn from some play time.

If you promise not to attack my knees when you take me down, I promise not to scream like a child with a scraped elbow.

Good to know you've still got the sense of humor writing style working.

 

[Martial D]

By using your approach, when you swing your

- arm, you will call it "arm swing". A hook punch and an uppercut are both arm swing.
- leg, you will call it "leg sweep". A cut, hook, spring, lift, scoop, break, sweep, ... are all leg sweep.

A good hook or uppercut moves 6 inches or less. There is no swing.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

By using your approach, when you swing your

- arm, you will call it "arm swing". A hook punch and an uppercut are both arm swing.
- leg, you will call it "leg sweep". A cut, hook, spring, lift, scoop, break, sweep, ... are all leg sweep.

Pretty close. I tend to group uppercut and hook into "round punches".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Good to know you've still got the sense of humor writing style working.

It's my teaching style and speaking/training style, too. I like to see people laughing when they're learning to use MS Excelor learning to handle an angry coworker. It warms my soul.

 

[drop bear]

Taped evidence of you doing it?

Because saying someone else can do it is kind of irrelevant.

Are we looking at the evidence that isn't there?

So if for example we can find evidence of hanzo taking someone down bjj wrestling mma whatever then we can get a gauge of his ability and therefore his authenticity.

We can't really put that up against an Aikidoka who we can't gauge.

Otherwise all the Aikidoka would need to do is just avoid getting in to a situation where his methods could be verified.

Or more simply. Making a claim like Usain bolt can't claim he is faster than me until he beats me in a running race. Is blatantly false.

And why is this logic so common with Aikido anyway?

 

[pdg]

Or more simply. Making a claim like Usain bolt can't claim he is faster than me until he beats me in a running race. Is blatantly false.

My post was directed specifically at one person, but this part of your reply is interesting actually.

In Bolt's case, we have verifiable evidence of him being faster than many other people who have trained to be fast. Based on that, he can claim to be faster than you. Most would just accept that claim because it's logical, it makes sense.

But, until it's tested it's just a claim.

You could claim to be faster than him, but it's less logical and most people would ask for more evidence to back it up.

It's not really a direct comparison though, because it's based on one single thing - running over a set distance.

The way you worded your statement introduces something else though...

You didn't specify faster at what ("until he beats you in a running race").

So let's modify...

"Usain bolt can't claim he is faster than me (on a bicycle / in a car / parachuting / carving a replica of the statue of David from canned cheese) until he beats me in a running race"

Now we're getting closer.

To me, that's somewhat akin to saying "aikido can't claim effectiveness in self defence until it's proven in MMA competition".

 

[Gerry Seymour]

My post was directed specifically at one person, but this part of your reply is interesting actually.

In Bolt's case, we have verifiable evidence of him being faster than many other people who have trained to be fast. Based on that, he can claim to be faster than you. Most would just accept that claim because it's logical, it makes sense.

But, until it's tested it's just a claim.

You could claim to be faster than him, but it's less logical and most people would ask for more evidence to back it up.

I'll go a step further. Faster is directly measurable. Bolt could run 100m and have it videoed and verified. We could send people over to do the same for DB. Then we can say clearly that Bolt is faster. Because it's comparing a single measurement between two people. There is room for analogy to MA, but it's not going to be a strong analogy, because we can't really measure a single item, unless it's a single "power" measurement for strikes or something, which doesn't readily translate to "better".

 

[FriedRice]

To me, that's somewhat akin to saying "aikido can't claim effectiveness in self defence until it's proven in MMA competition".