Whats your favourite weapon?

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by pesilat
Personally, I'd have a 20 or even a .410

My primary reason is that my wife would be able to use it without as much fear of the recoil and the bad guy won't know the difference anyway.

Mike

There are low recoil 12 gauge load. Check it out.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Actually the correct term is Corbon 400.

It is a 45 tapered to power a 40. Most 45 can be converted to fire Corbon 400 with a barrel drop change.

You're talking about a different bullet.

http://www.tromix.com/Tromix_440.htm

Corbon 440 is for the magnum bullets. Like on a Desert Eagle. .357 out of there will knock a guy down in one hit, same with teh .44 magnum, and the .50 AE

I've shot about a hundred .357 rounds out of a custom-made nickel DE. Not bad, very little recoil (due to its weight), very powerful. Then, I tried the .50 AE with a different DE (both DE's were not mine). You get pretty tired after a while with those.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That depends on what kind of wall you are talking about. It may not penetrate the concrete. But it might shred your bedroom wall and hit your kids next room! I suggest checking into some of the non lethal 12 gauge rounds or the specially designed low-penetration rounds (hollow rounds that collapse).

if it can go through about 6 inches of marble, with steel reinforcement (I have an old house).

 

[Infight]

1. Nade
2. M16
3. Entire me
4. My Knee

 

[A.R.K.]

Been gone for a few days so alot of posts have been made. I need to interject a few points of reality here. The .45 is a fine weapon. But it is not the killing caliber that JN is making it out to be. Not by a long shot. I need to get this point across so that folks are not mislead by others with nonsense like energy transfer.

A 9mm +P has more 'energy' than a .45 and if the sectional density is equal it will have similar penetration. Penetration is the priority not gun rag gimmick phrases such as 'energy transfer'.

I am familar with Hackworth's apprasial of the Beretta. However, his article was debunked as biased and having a hidden agenda. The sources were unreliable. Much discussion is available on glocktalk.com concerning this. Anyone interested need simply do a search.

I would ask again JN for your sources on the data you cite??? You tout the .45 over the 9mm because of 'energy transfer' yet the 9mm has more kinetic energy [or equal if talking non +P rounds]. And the 115+P has a notorious reputation in real world shootings for underpenetration...that is a fact. I have supplied several sources for purposes of verification.

You challenge my expertise in this area but do not supply hard data and sources [except that which has been discredited] and recite gun rag retoric word for word. Let me be very clear on this once again, Function, Penetration & accuracy are the priorities. There is no practical difference in terminal performance between service calibers. And items such as energy transfer, temporary wound channel, kinetic energy, stopping power, knock down power etc are gun rag catch phrases designed to catch the attention and money of the gullible.

Get a firearm that you shoot well with and practice. Get a round that functions well and has adequate penatration and train. Don't waste your time looking for a magic bullet or caliber...they don't exist.

Cheers

 

[MartialArtist]

Bigger round usually means more damage for pistols.

It's not the energy that's really important for damage, because a gun can release 100 more joules than another gun but cause less damage.

That's why when hunting with a handgun, people don't recommend you use anything lower than a .44 magnum.

 

[A.R.K.]

Martial Artist,

Bigger round usually means more damage for pistols

I agree with you, mostly A bigger round 'can' do more damage BUT we need to keep it in perspective. a .40 is 1mm larger than a 9mm. A .45 is only 2mm larger than a 9mm. That is not really anything to get excited over.

When speaking about hollow points [when they open], a 9mm can open up almost as large as a .45 with the right ammo brand. And a smaller expanded diameter sometimes means the bullet has over expanded to a smaller recovered diameter. If the bullet is not recovered in the body it is often difficult or impossible to determine handgun caliber used.

Yes it can cause a bit more damage, and every edge helps I suppose but being accruate with follow up shots is more important than initial caliber. FMJ's would be even closer.

We agree on much though. What I have to disagree with is the typical OSS line that others seem to push. It can cause good people to get hurt or even killed.

I used to be a velocity proponent. The faster the better. But the more I researched and the more real-world practical experience I gained destroyed that position. Firearmstactical by Shawn Dodson has some fine information as well as the IWBA.

Take care

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Martial Artist,



I agree with you, mostly A bigger round 'can' do more damage BUT we need to keep it in perspective. a .40 is 1mm larger than a 9mm. A .45 is only 2mm larger than a 9mm. That is not really anything to get excited over.

When speaking about hollow points [when they open], a 9mm can open up almost as large as a .45 with the right ammo brand. And a smaller expanded diameter sometimes means the bullet has over expanded to a smaller recovered diameter. If the bullet is not recovered in the body it is often difficult or impossible to determine handgun caliber used.

Yes it can cause a bit more damage, and every edge helps I suppose but being accruate with follow up shots is more important than initial caliber. FMJ's would be even closer.

We agree on much though. What I have to disagree with is the typical OSS line that others seem to push. It can cause good people to get hurt or even killed.

I used to be a velocity proponent. The faster the better. But the more I researched and the more real-world practical experience I gained destroyed that position. Firearmstactical by Shawn Dodson has some fine information as well as the IWBA.

Take care

1mm isn't that big of a difference if you look on a scale, but for bullets, it determines many factors such as speed, force, range, less susceptibility to environmental conditions, the ability to fit a few more rounds, etc. Compare the pictures of a .44 magnum and a .50 AE. The diameter isn't all that different, but look at the bullet.

 

[MartialArtist]

For JN, here is more info on the 440 corbon.

http://209.159.200.198/440corbon.html

 

[A.R.K.]

You have some valid points. When talking about the .44 magnum/.440 Corbon/.454 casul/.50 A&E or magnum things like kinetic energy start to take on meaning. The are getting up into the 'somewhat' respectable range considering rifle ballistics.

If memory serves me, the .454 for example has roughly 3 times the 'energy' of a warm .357 magnum i.e. around 1500 fpe. Now we are talking impact

But at normal 9mm to .45 levels it is just not a measurable factor towards terminal ballistics. Sure, it plays a part, but the bullet striking a vital is much more of a consideration. I cringe when people start talking about neorological shock and things of this nature. I had the same converstation with another poster on another site as I am with JN. Only his thing was the .357 sig. According to him it should've been mounted on naval warships for use in anti aircraft batteries He kept citing M & S's OSS study not realizing it was discredited information. However, sadly people are still taken in by these things.

I used to load up with the 115+P corbon. That was years ago and quite a bit of real world experience ago. Now it is the Gold dot 124+P in part because of the fine results our agency has gotten in numerous shootings over the last 5-7 years. Good function, great penetration in tissue and barriers, decent expansion, excellent weight retention and superb accuracy. Thats a pretty good combination.

Good talking with you on this MA. I think we are very nearly on the same sheet here

Take er easy.

 

[MartialArtist]

However, a 9mm, although faster a lot of the time compared to similiar .45 counter-parts of the same pistol, it won't bring a person down really in one shot. If the guy is wearing a kevlar vest, a 9mm is like a peashooter. One sure way is to aim for the head, but that is not always practical.

A .50 on the other hand, goes right through the vest and the person, and a 6 inch slab of concrete.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
Been gone for a few days so alot of posts have been made. I need to interject a few points of reality here. The .45 is a fine weapon. But it is not the killing caliber that JN is making it out to be. Not by a long shot. I need to get this point across so that folks are not mislead by others with nonsense like energy transfer.

You are such an arm chair expert. We have men in the field, using 45 and 9mm to fend for their lives. Who has more credibility, you or them? No contest.

I suggest you take up a course in physics about energy transfer, and stop making a fool of yourself in making scientifically baseless statement. You have been contradicting yourself and not knowing it. See if you can figure out what you stated wrong, in your statement I quoted below. I'll let you work on this one by yourself first.

A 9mm +P has more 'energy' than a .45 and if the sectional density is equal it will have similar penetration. Penetration is the priority not gun rag gimmick phrases such as 'energy transfer'.

same old same old. Nothing new. Just because you keep repeating some BS does not make it true.

I am familar with Hackworth's apprasial of the Beretta. However, his article was debunked as biased and having a hidden agenda. The sources were unreliable. Much discussion is available on glocktalk.com concerning this. Anyone interested need simply do a search.

So easy to mouth off some baseless accusation. Care to back up your accusation with some proof? Just because you say so, does not mean squat. Hackworth has far more credibility than you sir. What does Mike Clark call you again?

I would ask again JN for your sources on the data you cite??? You tout the .45 over the 9mm because of 'energy transfer' yet the 9mm has more kinetic energy [or equal if talking non +P rounds]. And the 115+P has a notorious reputation in real world shootings for underpenetration...that is a fact. I have supplied several sources for purposes of verification.

You challenge my expertise in this area but do not supply hard data and sources [except that which has been discredited] and recite gun rag retoric word for word. Let me be very clear on this once again, Function, Penetration & accuracy are the priorities. There is no practical difference in terminal performance between service calibers. And items such as energy transfer, temporary wound channel, kinetic energy, stopping power, knock down power etc are gun rag catch phrases designed to catch the attention and money of the gullible.

Let me make it clear again. For someone who claims to be a firearm expert (among a whole bunch of other things), your statement about 45 being 2mm larger than the 9, sold you out clearly. LMAO! A real firearm expert would know to look at the Cross Section!! Try that, ZDW. May be then you will start learning something.

You keep asking sources, yet you are unable to bring yourself to read those links I posted. I assure you that battlefield reports have far more credibility than your internet forum.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
....If memory serves me, the .454 for example has roughly 3 times the 'energy' of a warm .357 magnum i.e. around 1500 fpe. Now we are talking impact ...

Why bother with this, if energy transfer is not the issue? Why even bother with impact?

I have a feeling you don't really know the true definitions of these terms.

 

[A.R.K.]

Oh Johnny You just keep stepping in it don't you. And you don't even realize it, thats the sad part.

You are such an arm chair expert.

Uhmmm no. Not with two decades of actual military/LEO experience under my belt. I used to think the way you do....when I was a teenager that watched alot of TV.

We have men in the field, using 45 and 9mm to fend for their lives. Who has more credibility, you or them?

The same because I'm still in the 'field' and still seeing both live action shootings as well as researching data for mine and other agencies. Here's a hint for you...there is much more to this field than reading Guns & Ammo.

I refer you, once again, to firearmstactical and Shawn Dodson as well as the International Wound Ballistics Association for some REAL data on REAL shootings involving REAL people. You REALLY need to put aside your pride and look at something beyond what you think you know. You are not an expert in this field my friend. No offense, but you are not. I'm an expert witness in this field because of my background and research. And it's public record for any and all to check out.

Have you ever seen someone get shot in real life in front of you?

Have you ever compared terminal wound ballistics?

Have you ever been called into court to testify as to your expertise in this area?

How many Firearms Instructor certifications do you hold?

How many prisoners have you taken custody of/interviewed that were wounded in a police action shooting or domestic dispute?

A 9mm +P has more 'energy' than a .45 and if the sectional density is equal it will have similar penetration. Penetration is the priority not gun rag gimmick phrases such as 'energy transfer'.

There is nothing wrong with this statement. For example let's use the 9mm round I am carrying right now as I type this post. It is a Gold Dot 124+P 9mm with a nominal muzzle velocity of 1220 FPS vs a standard 230 .45 with a nominal muzzle velocity of 850 FPS [IF it is out of a 5 inch barrel].

Lets do the math shall we....

124 divided by 7000 [bullet weight in lbs = 0.01771428...
multipied by the square of the velocity = 26365.94...
divided by two gravities [64.32] = 409.91 FPE

So the 9mm +P has 410 FPE

230 divided = 0.032857...
multiplied = 23739.28...
divided = 369.08

So the .45 has 369 FPE

Hmmm, I'm not sure where you learned math but 410 is a bigger number than 369. You can go into momentum and the like but that is generally used for slide energy and has nothing to do with how hard a bullet 'hits' someone.

As to Hackworth, I AGAIN, provided resourses into his 'account' of the Berreta that showed his errors. Your choosing to ignore those sources does not negate their validity.

your statement about 45 being 2mm larger than the 9,

A 9mm is .355 caliber. A .40/10mm is just that. A .45 is of course .454 give or take depending on the bullet maker and loading i.e. .454 casull etc. That is pretty much a 2mm difference between the two. If you can't see that, well.....

Bullets DO NOT knock people down, period, end of story. Maybe in your world they do but not in the real world. If bullets DO knock people down then answer this question for all of us here reading this...

SSgt Carlos Hathcock USMC, one of the best Marine snipers ever [probably THE best] with 93 confirmed kills and possibly as much as 3 times that many unconfirmed. Most with the Winschester 70. He recounts a mission in which he shot a VC with the Win 70 at around 100 yards which is NOTHING as far as his capabilities were concerned. Direct COM shot with a round that has perhaps FOUR TIMES the 'energy' of a .45 in FPE. Not only didn't the VC fall down...he broke into a FULL RUN towards Hatcock's position. Hathcock repeatedly hit him COM and it didn't even SLOW HIM DOWN. Finally I believe the 7th time a head shot ended the VC's sprint. Now this is a VC that was probably 130 lbs soaking wet, hit by multiple rifle fire with CONSIDERABLY more 'energy', 'velocity' etc [all the buzz words] than a .45 and it didn't knock him down and it didn't stop him until there was a major CNS hit.

Why was this small statured individual not 'knock down'? This mission was witnessed and verified by his spoter Cpl Burke I believe. So how about it Mr. Knock down energy guy.....

Hugs and kisses

 

[MartialArtist]

Where exactly are your records? What corps? What divison? Your rank? Have you seen somebody shot in front of you and die? What conflict was that in?

 

[A.R.K.]

For the Pinellas County Sheriff's Office as well as the South Eastern Public Safety Institute. It encompasses shootings not only for our agency but for those Counties, municipalities as well as state agencies in West Central Florida.

Rank is Deputy as well as Senior Instructor for Agency and S.E.P.S.I..

Yes, I have seen people shot in front of me during my career. Unfortunately, I have seen some on them expire. And I have taken custody of/interviewed more prisoners over 12 years than I can remember. Thats why I wrote the information down for future reference.

This is why I have dramatically changed my position over the years, because of factual first-hand information and direct research. I used to be in 'the faster/more energy the better' camp. Based on first hand knowledge and direct data I can no longer hold to that postition.

The priorities are function, penetration and accuracy under stress. It is a simple as that. Everything else is icing but without the first three everything else is mute.

There is an old saying "It's not shooting SOMETHING that is IMPORTANT, it is shootings SOMETHING IMPORTANT that is IMPORTANT, regardless of caliber, velocity, bullet type etc."

Stay safe.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Facts for you ZDW. (since you refuse to read the link, I just repost the article and highlighted the FACTS that counter your armchair quarterbacking)

link A : http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9302&archive=true

Soldiers who fought in Afghanistan have some hard-earned opinions about the rifles on which they relied to stay alive. Mostly, they want more firepower.

The standard-issue ammunition compounded the problem, they said: The 5.56 mm round shot — a bullet equivalent to that marketed in the States to shoot small vermin — wasn’t effective in stopping al-Qaida and Taliban fighters. “Should be a 7.62 mm, so it will drop a man with one shot,” wrote one soldier.

Not all soldiers’ reviews were negative. Pat, a Special Forces soldier who is serving in Afghanistan, wrote the military watchdog group Soldiers for the Truth that “the M-4 with optics and the newer hand guards tends to be a pretty good weapon. Guys can change the optics out depending on the mission, and misfeeds don’t happen too often with good weapon maintenance.

The adjustable shoulder stock and assault sling, front pistol grip works well with body armor and different sized guys also,” the soldier said.

Army Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, project manager for the small arms section of the report, said: “Somewhere between the trigger pullers and the maintainers is the ground truth.”

Also a factor, he said, are the rounds soldiers use today.

Soldiers now use the M-855 ball round, a lighter bullet designed during the mid-1980s with a steel penetrator designed to pierce body armor. But soldiers now find themselves shooting at al-Qaida, an enemy that doesn’t use body armor.

Some soldiers who fought in Afghanistan said the small, current-issue 5.56 mm rounds just lack needed punch.

The commercially available equivalent to a 5.56 mm round is a .223-caliber — marketed as a vermin round, for killing small game such as rabbits or coyotes, said John Bloodgood, a 19-year Air Force master sergeant with 11 years in tactical units, who also is a private firearms instructor.

More effective are .308 bullets — commonly used for large-game hunting and similar in size to bullets used up through the Korean War, he said.

“A .308 bullet has almost twice the frontal area of a .223,” he said.

It’s not the size but the type of round the military’s using, and shot placement, that determines a bullet’s stopping capability, said Ken Cooper, director of Tactical Handgun Training, a New York state certified law-enforcement pistol-training facility.

“The military uses hardball rounds and the effect is less than if soldiers were shooting expansion rounds,” Cooper said. “You can penetrate the human body with little to no effect.” (Note: so much for your PENETRATION hype )

Cooper teaches law-enforcement officials to shoot low, for the pelvis. He said the human torso is like a sponge; it easily ]can absorb the impact of small pieces of lead, especially non-expanding jacketed bullets that leave small, clean holes that close quickly. (Note: lack of energy transfer!)

Shots to the pelvis, Cooper said, increase the likelihood of breaking the pelvic bone or severing the femoral artery, resulting in an immobilized attacker at a minimum or one rapidly losing blood at a maximum.

“The military teaches people to shoot center mast, in the middle of the body,” he said. “But if you hit people low, they will go down quickly. That’s what we want, both in civilian law enforcement and in military combat.” [/b]

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Facts for ZDW episode II.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9316&archive=true

Soldiers who fought in combat in Afghanistan are saying they want a better pistol. The one they have now, they say, isn’t doing the job.

An unclassified U.S. Army “Lessons Learned” report indicates some soldiers were dissatisfied with the performance of the M-9 9 mm Beretta pistol, the Army’s standard-issue sidearm — the same one used by soldiers during operations Anaconda and Mountain Lion in Afghanistan.

Nine soldiers completed surveys for the M-9 pistol. Only one reported firing his pistol in combat “to engage targets of opportunity at 15 me-ters.” No combat malfunctions were reported.

However, just 63 percent of soldiers surveyed said they felt confident with the M-9 and trusted its reliability. That compared with almost 90 percent who felt the same way about their M-4 rifles, even though they share similar complaints about lack of knock-down power.

Some soldiers criticized the pistol’s effectiveness. One said the 9 mm rounds were “inaccurate and not powerful enough.” Three soldiers indicated they wanted the Army to field a more powerful round.

Veterans who’ve used this gun have complained to Washington. Retired Col. David Hackworth, an author and vocal critic of military policy, wrote an open letter to Congress in July calling for more reliable weapons to be issued to the military.

“We went into Vietnam with a bad weapon, the M-16 rifle, which was responsible for killing thousands of our soldiers,” he wrote. “What the M-16 was to Vietnam, the Beretta is to Afghanistan. And a soldier with no confidence in his weapon isn’t the most motivated fighter.”

Hackworth said one Afghanistan veteran wrote him that, “I had to pump four rounds into an al-Qaeda who was coming at me before he dropped."

“Our issue M-9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable,” another wrote to Hackworth. “They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9 mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range."

Some soldiers are coping by packing heftier .45-caliber pistols, similar to those used by generations of soldiers and Marines since before World War II. Such .45s remain in the U.S. military inventory, but the origin of those used in Afghanistan — military issue or privately owned — remains unclear.

What’s not unclear to several of those using the older weapon is its value. “It saved my life,” one Army Ranger told Hackworth. “I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldn’t have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range.”

]A Special Forces sergeant in Afghanistan wrote to Hackworth, “The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Beretta’s 9 mm will, too — eventually — but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasn’t the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds.”

The Army says it’s too soon to rush to judgment against the pistol. No changes are in store to replace the M-9 for soldiers, but Army Lt. Col. Robert Carpenter, the project manager for the weapons reports, said more interviews are on the way to figure out just where the problems lie.

“We are taking the opportunity just this past week to review the raw information and re-interview the same units, to include leaders and all the way up through the logistics channels in order to identify any areas that may require support,” he said — but added, “I don’t know of any immediate changes to be implemented.”

Nor is everyone convinced the M-9 needs to go. It’s the bullet, they say, that’s no good.

For instance, in a famous civilian case in the States, an expert testified that the bullets had low lethality.

Ken Cooper, a New York state-certified law-enforcement pistol instructor, testified in the infamous Amadou Diallo shooting by New York City police in 1999. Cooper said police fired 19 9 mm full-metal-jacket bullets — the same ones used by the U.S. military — into Diallo. Of those, Cooper said, just three had any effect on his body; only one of those was fatal.

“Controlled expansion rounds would have had a much more pronounced effect and therefore effective result,” he said.

Cooper favors the M-9 as a durable weapon — but carries a .45-caliber handgun. He said there are trade-offs; no one bullet will meet every requirement.

“It is not the caliber or gun that is primary in effectiveness,” he said. “The larger the round, the more tearing of blood vessels and dumping of kinetic energy. (Note: ENERGY TRANSFER!! DUH!!!! ) The military is restricted to using, in general application, hardball rounds. Even the larger .45 in military ball does little more than the abused 9 mm. A better bullet design combined with a well-trained operator makes a lethal and effective weapons system.”

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Unlike ZDW, I have never claimed to be an expert.

But I would give more credit to battlefiled reports from people who live and die by the ammo they use, than to some BS theory (hardly a theory; rather it is some internet dude's bogus claim) that violates the basis of science.

The fact is screaming in your face. LMAO. It is all about kinetic energy transfer! That is what happens when a bullet is fired to impact a target, ie, destroying material by impact. I am screaming my lung out here! What kind of expert (selfclaimed) that does not know this? Yet, he keeps talking about fps!! Duh! *sigh*

PS. oh, BTW, 45 has 60% more frontal area than a 9mm!! A lot more than 2mm tells you, buddy boy! You ought to have known this, if you were a real firearm expert.

 

[MartialArtist]

JN, I just shot off 60 or so rounds of a .440 corbon. Recoil is amazing, much more than a .50 AE. I could only make an aimed shot every 2 seconds or so, the kickback is like whoa. You should try to shoot off some rounds, and it isn't anything like a 9mm or a .45 where one can shoot a substantial number of rounds before getting tired.