Whats your favourite weapon?

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
I'm noy 100% sure.

Many high-caliber rifles go right through kevlar vests. However, if the vest absorbs most of the energy of a 9mm, then it'll hit you with more force in the sense that it is like a punch.

A lot of people have been shot with a normal 9mm with vests on and it causes bruises.

Remember, there are many types of bullets for each caliber. The 5.56mm out of a M-16 like I said before, causes the swiss cheese effect where it bounces around in your body causing internal holes theoritically. A 7.62mm out of some snipers punch right through you.

Battlefield reports indicate that the 5.56mm has the tendency to require multiple shots to put down the target while the 7.62 or 308 is one shot one kill.

I understand that the 5.56mm can have drastic wound effect in many situations. But battlefield results show that soldiers would rather have 7.62mm.

About the Kevlar, to stop assault rifle shots, ceramic plates are needed.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
What he means is that the force of the bullet isn't what knocks you over. Physics tells us that you can't fall over from getting shot. However, people falling over is a result of you dying, or human response. If you get shot in the head, you'll fall, but it's not the force of the bullet but the bullet killing you that makes you fall over.

A .357 out of a high-powered rifle will go right through you. You won't fall over because there is little energy transfer. But, the person is likely to go to the ground if he gets shot out of a high-powered rifle.

That is not what happens in real life.

When you get shot with a 45, you are going to get energy transfer. You are going to get a nasty wound channel with serious tissue damage. You are going to fall on your *** and meet your maker! The 45 is battle field proven. The 1911 KILLS!! How can people who claim to be firearm experts not know this? GIVE ME A BREAK! This is like arguing with the town's drunk!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei ...... I know that SF used to widely use 9mm but the .45 is coming back in vouge. ...

DUH!! I wander why!

Military are not allowed to use hollow points, by Geneva Convention. To circumvent the over penetration and lack of energy transfer problem, they found the solution in the battle proven 45!

The problem with 45 , for civilians, is the recoil. To circumvent that, you just need to practice often. The 45 has another problem, it goes through wall like sh* t goes through geese. For civilian defence, you had better develop good shooting skills or get the prefragmented ammo.

 

[GaryM]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
The 5.56mm out of a M-16 like I said before, causes the swiss cheese effect where it bounces around in your body causing internal holes theoritically.

The 5.56 doesn't really 'bounce around' in your body. Because of the Geneva convention military ammo is non-expanding. So to increase the effectivness of the relativly small light round (basically a .22) the shape of the bullit tends to cause it to tumble when it hits tissue. Some times when it hits bone it will take off in crazy directions and exit in stange locations. I guess you could call this bouncing around, but not like a pong game!

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Zhao Dai Wei
A good example would be an individual I took custody of several years ago. He was chasing a woman in her front yard with a butcher knife. Responding officers shot him multiple times in the arm & leg as his body was bladed to them. The rounds broke the upper arm and the femur bones. He fell down as a result of the injury, not the force of the rounds hitting his body.

An important note to this is that he was injured but not incapacitated. He was unable to continue the attack only because his knife had a limited range. Had it been a firearm he would have been able to return fire.

Being shot in the vest isn't fun of course, and describing it as a punch is a very good comparison.

And a clarification I think is in order. The .40 is fine for defense, however it needs to be kept in perspective. It is 1mm more than a 9mm and 1mm less than a .45. Velocity is similar to the 9mm and sectional densities are the same in regards to 115 9mm compared to 135 .40 compared to 185 .45 for example. Given similar velocity and sectional density a 1mm is not anything to get excited about. And certainly no reason to sell my 9 and .45 to get one

Priorities:
Function
Shot placement
Accuracy
Follow up shots

Everything else is just stuff to talk about

Had that individual been shot with a 45, he would be DOWN.

If people insist on 9mm, get the Remington 115 +P+ rounds (Law Enforcement use). It is a stone cold killer. *sigh* Hope they never have to pull the trigger. There is enough misery in the world already.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
Battlefield reports indicate that the 5.56mm has the tendency to require multiple shots to put down the target while the 7.62 or 308 is one shot one kill.

I understand that the 5.56mm can have drastic wound effect in many situations. But battlefield results show that soldiers would rather have 7.62mm.

About the Kevlar, to stop assault rifle shots, ceramic plates are needed.

Rifles using 7.62, like the M14 and the AK-47, don't have the best follow-up shots. The AK-47 can get very difficult to control when going full-auto, and even going at a couple-round bursts gets you a bit tired after a while. Single-shot, no problem.

Comparing 5.56mm and 7.62mm isn't really about which is better, but about the guns that use them. The M16 is superior weapon compared to the AK-47. It's been like that since the 1980's or so. During the Vietnam War, there were many problems while the AK-47 could go through mud and water.

The new H&K rifle being developed, the OIWC? or something like that, is going to use 5.56 I believe. There's good reason for that. It might be in 7.62 but I'm not sure. The only real problem I could think of is 5.56 at great distances, where wind and other conditions can sway the bullet off course a bit.

Battlefield results, can you post a link?

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
That is not what happens in real life.

When you get shot with a 45, you are going to get energy transfer. You are going to get a nasty wound channel with serious tissue damage. You are going to fall on your *** and meet your maker! The 45 is battle field proven. The 1911 KILLS!! How can people who claim to be firearm experts not know this? GIVE ME A BREAK! This is like arguing with the town's drunk!

We are not arguing that. If I remember, nobody is.

What I'm arguing about is that energy transfer is NOT what knocks you down. It is what HAPPENS AS A RESULT OF THE BULLET that knocks you down. Hypothetically, if the pistol shot something that did not penetrate you but was just pure force, it would not knock you down.

It's the result of the bullet that knocks you down like I've said before. If you get shot in the leg, you will limp or fall down. It's NOT THE ENERGY TRANSFER, it's the bullet and the damage it causes.

The 45 kills, who said it didn't? The Browning pistol killed for almost a 100 years.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
DUH!! I wander why!

Military are not allowed to use hollow points, by Geneva Convention. To circumvent the over penetration and lack of energy transfer problem, they found the solution in the battle proven 45!

The problem with 45 , for civilians, is the recoil. To circumvent that, you just need to practice often. The 45 has another problem, it goes through wall like sh* t goes through geese. For civilian defence, you had better develop good shooting skills or get the prefragmented ammo.

Most civilians use a 9mm para or .40 S&W I believe, I'm not sure, but you may know what poll I'm talking about.

A .44 magnum, or a .440 cor-bon, and a .50 AE have the ability to go through class II bullet-proof vests (out of a DE), the person behind it, and still retain its lethal abilities for at least a kilometer. The .440 cor-bon is very dangerous, has a high fps rating, and a lot of recoil behind it.

The .45 H&K USP Expert had less recoil I thought than a Beretta .40 S&W or a Taurus. I believe it's due to superior design but then again, it's a $1200+ handgun.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by GaryM
The 5.56 doesn't really 'bounce around' in your body. Because of the Geneva convention military ammo is non-expanding. So to increase the effectivness of the relativly small light round (basically a .22) the shape of the bullit tends to cause it to tumble when it hits tissue. Some times when it hits bone it will take off in crazy directions and exit in stange locations. I guess you could call this bouncing around, but not like a pong game!

No, it does not zig-zag around your body. I apologize if my wording gave you the wrong impression.

 

[MartialArtist]

self-defense = 9mm glock is the best, but .357, .380, or .40 S&W
military = .45 ACP
hunting = .44 magnum, .440 cor-bon, .50 AE

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
We are not arguing that. If I remember, nobody is.

What I'm arguing about is that energy transfer is NOT what knocks you down. It is what HAPPENS AS A RESULT OF THE BULLET that knocks you down. Hypothetically, if the pistol shot something that did not penetrate you but was just pure force, it would not knock you down.

It's the result of the bullet that knocks you down like I've said before. If you get shot in the leg, you will limp or fall down. It's NOT THE ENERGY TRANSFER, it's the bullet and the damage it causes.

The 45 kills, who said it didn't? The Browning pistol killed for almost a 100 years.

I wasn't arguing with you. Sorry about the misleading statement.

Back to the post. When the bullet thumbers inside you, your body is absorbing the kinetic energy. When the bullet goes clean through you, there is little to no energy transfer. If you think you would still be standing there with a bullet thumbling inside your torso, you must be one real heavy mof*.

The reality is, people die from 22, 25 all the way to 50. It is safe to say the real factor is a combination of caliber, load, and shot placement. People survived point blank shots; people killed by 9mm bullets skimming across a lake a mile wide. Some cirminals survived 5-6 shots from the COPS; some innocent kids died from a BB shot from their friends' air pistols. You can't really generalize with absolute certainty. The only certainty is Murphy's Law.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Rifles using 7.62, like the M14 and the AK-47, don't have the best follow-up shots. The AK-47 can get very difficult to control when going full-auto, and even going at a couple-round bursts gets you a bit tired after a while. Single-shot, no problem.

7.62 don't get deflected by tree branches and don't fragment easily.

5.56, you can carry more rounds per trooper.

Comparing 5.56mm and 7.62mm isn't really about which is better, but about the guns that use them. The M16 is superior weapon compared to the AK-47. It's been like that since the 1980's or so. During the Vietnam War, there were many problems while the AK-47 could go through mud and water.

In Somalia, the report was that, several 5.56mm shots were needed to down the "technicals" doped high in Kat or whatever hell they smoked down there. Similar reports are filtering out of Afghanistan.

7.62 is one shot one kill.

The M16 problem experienced in Vietnam was resolved in later designs.

The new H&K rifle being developed, the OIWC? or something like that, is going to use 5.56 I believe. There's good reason for that. It might be in 7.62 but I'm not sure. The only real problem I could think of is 5.56 at great distances, where wind and other conditions can sway the bullet off course a bit.

THe QIWC is a heavy and expensive sucker. I don't know much about it.

Battlefield results, can you post a link?

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9302&archive=true

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Most civilians use a 9mm para or .40 S&W I believe, I'm not sure, but you may know what poll I'm talking about.

A .44 magnum, or a .440 cor-bon, and a .50 AE have the ability to go through class II bullet-proof vests (out of a DE), the person behind it, and still retain its lethal abilities for at least a kilometer. The .440 cor-bon is very dangerous, has a high fps rating, and a lot of recoil behind it.

The .45 H&K USP Expert had less recoil I thought than a Beretta .40 S&W or a Taurus. I believe it's due to superior design but then again, it's a $1200+ handgun.

The Corbon 440 is a 45 load propelling a 40 caliber.

It is a dilemma. If you face a criminal with bullet-proof vest (as many gangbangers are catching on), your prefragmented MagSafe, BeeSafe, HydraShok are not going to work. Yet, if you shot an armor piecing round, you might risk over penetration and kill your neighbor across the street.

The solution is not to live in situation where such gunfight is necessary.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Johnathan Napalm
The Corbon 440 is a 45 load propelling a 40 caliber.

It is a dilemma. If you face a criminal with bullet-proof vest (as many gangbangers are catching on), your prefragmented MagSafe, BeeSafe, HydraShok are not going to work. Yet, if you shot an armor piecing round, you might risk over penetration and kill your neighbor across the street.

The solution is not to live in situation where such gunfight is necessary.

Isn't the Corbon 440 a .50 AE loaded into a 44 magnum?

 

[MartialArtist]

For home defense, you can't beat a 12 guage. Reliable, and think about it. It's three in the morning, and you won't be able to see that well in the dark. Plus, shotgun shells can't go through walls really.

 

[pesilat]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
For home defense, you can't beat a 12 guage. Reliable, and think about it. It's three in the morning, and you won't be able to see that well in the dark. Plus, shotgun shells can't go through walls really.

Personally, I'd have a 20 or even a .410

My primary reason is that my wife would be able to use it without as much fear of the recoil and the bad guy won't know the difference anyway.

Mike

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

More battlefield report on the 9mm.

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9316&archive=true

This is real life. Not ZDW's day dream.

"...“Our issue M-9 pistol (Beretta M92F) is proving itself unreliable,” another wrote to Hackworth. “They are constantly breaking. To make matters worse, the 9 mm hardball round we use is a joke. It is categorically ineffective as a fight stopper, even at close range."

Some soldiers are coping by packing heftier .45-caliber pistols, similar to those used by generations of soldiers and Marines since before World War II. Such .45s remain in the U.S. military inventory, but the origin of those used in Afghanistan — military issue or privately owned — remains unclear.

What’s not unclear to several of those using the older weapon is its value. “It saved my life,” one Army Ranger told Hackworth. “I hit a number of enemy 30-40 yards away who went down immediately from my .45 rounds. With a Beretta, I wouldn’t have made it because of the far-too-light 9 mm bullet, play in the action and its limited range.”

A Special Forces sergeant in Afghanistan wrote to Hackworth, “The large-caliber, slow-moving .45 bullet puts the bad guys on the ground. Lighter stuff like the Beretta’s 9 mm will, too — eventually — but on the battlefield you almost always have to double tap, and in close combat a gunfighter hasn’t the time or the ammo to lose firing two rounds.”...."

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

http://www.estripes.com/article.asp?section=104&article=9317&archive=true

Marines' 45

"..They need a weapon that will be able to put somebody down now,” Tafolla said. “It all comes back to the energy you deliver to the target. Although the 9 mm is faster, the .45 is able to deliver more energy and achieve greater penetration. That’s what you have to have.” ....'

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
Isn't the Corbon 440 a .50 AE loaded into a 44 magnum?

Actually the correct term is Corbon 400.

It is a 45 tapered to power a 40. Most 45 can be converted to fire Corbon 400 with a barrel drop change.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by MartialArtist
For home defense, you can't beat a 12 guage. Reliable, and think about it. It's three in the morning, and you won't be able to see that well in the dark. Plus, shotgun shells can't go through walls really.

That depends on what kind of wall you are talking about. It may not penetrate the concrete. But it might shred your bedroom wall and hit your kids next room! I suggest checking into some of the non lethal 12 gauge rounds or the specially designed low-penetration rounds (hollow rounds that collapse).