Whats your favourite weapon?

[A.R.K.]

Anyone who knows anything about firearms, know that within effective range, a blast from a 12 guage will blow a gapping hole in the torso, or chop a limb off.

First...you don't know very much about firearms except what comes out of Gunz n Ammo.

Second...you watch to much TV.

Third...this is a documented police shooting from Clearwater PD in Florida. It is public record and anyone can inquire about it.

In short, ZDW being the typical IWBA follower,

No, but I know common sense and reality based investigations from military and LE experts in this country. Dr. Fackler and I disagree on a couple of points however, he has the credentials and documentation to back up his view point. Whereas M & S have been shown to be less than forthcoming with where their 'evidence' came from. I highly suspect, as do others in this field that it came from the same place the Strausburg goat test came from....fantasy land.

If you wish to bet your life on ammunition that is proven to underpenetrate in real people in hopes that is going to throw them backwards like in the movies....well, it's your life.

Hope you never have to find out how wrong you are my friend.

 

[arnisador]

Please, keep the discussion polite and respectful.

-Arnisador
-MT Admin-

 

[A.R.K.]

:asian:

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
First...you don't know very much about firearms except what comes out of Gunz n Ammo.

Second...you watch to much TV.

Third...this is a documented police shooting from Clearwater PD in Florida. It is public record and anyone can inquire about it.




No, but I know common sense and reality based investigations from military and LE experts in this country. Dr. Fackler and I disagree on a couple of points however, he has the credentials and documentation to back up his view point. Whereas M & S have been shown to be less than forthcoming with where their 'evidence' came from. I highly suspect, as do others in this field that it came from the same place the Strausburg goat test came from....fantasy land.

If you wish to bet your life on ammunition that is proven to underpenetrate in real people in hopes that is going to throw them backwards like in the movies....well, it's your life.

Hope you never have to find out how wrong you are my friend.

So you're saying a 12-guage can't knock you back? Excuse me? Are you crazy? A bullet won't knock you back in terms of physics, but a 12-guage will. Like I said, totally different comparing a bullet vs. some good old shot. A M3 will knock a 300 pound man back. People test M3's all the time, it's a favorite among SWAT, FBI, and counter-terrorist forces like the Delta Force and certain Navy SEAL groups. There are tests done where they had a M3 shoot different things, and it knocked a 500 pound dummy with a fairly strong base, right on his back.

 

[A.R.K.]

What I am saying is that the perception of what a shotgun is capable of comes maily from the movies. Just like when Mel Gibson got shot with the 12g in Lethal Weapon and flys [in slow mo] through the window behind him. That doesn't happen. I believe what I see in real life. A signal 20 young man a few years ago took 3 rounds and 1 shot of 00 buck and he was not knocked down. He continued to fight. What can I tell you partner, it's not a perfect world.

I can't go along with the crowd and say a 12g will knock you down...when I have seen it not knock someone down. And he was a buck twenty or so. I've seen it not knock down a 10 watermelon with a vest on in a demonstration. I've seen someone take several rounds in a level III flak jacket from a full auto rifle and they stood on one leg, crane style, to demonstrate they would not be knocked down. I have the video in my library. I don't remember the caliber of hand. And as I've said, a Win 70 can pack a bit of a punch, yet Hathcock's account of a VC taking 6 rounds COM and he still kept coming. What can I tell you partner. For me seeing is believing.

I used to believe exactly like Johnathan. I wanted all the velocity I could get in a round. If I had one that went 1300 fps I wanted one that went 1350. That was quite some time ago. I know know three definate things; Function, penetration and accuracy under stress. Everything else is window dressing and things for gun mags. Everything else doesn't matter if the first three are not met.

I don't expect or look for a round to knock someone down whatever the caliber, whatever the platform. I look to hit COM as accurately and as quickly and with as many rounds as is needed to incapacitate the threat.

And I hope NONE of us is ever in this postition regardless of our view point. Stay safe.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
What I am saying is that the perception of what a shotgun is capable of comes maily from the movies. Just like when Mel Gibson got shot with the 12g in Lethal Weapon and flys [in slow mo] through the window behind him. That doesn't happen. I believe what I see in real life. A signal 20 young man a few years ago took 3 rounds and 1 shot of 00 buck and he was not knocked down. He continued to fight. What can I tell you partner, it's not a perfect world.

I can't go along with the crowd and say a 12g will knock you down...when I have seen it not knock someone down. And he was a buck twenty or so. I've seen it not knock down a 10 watermelon with a vest on in a demonstration. I've seen someone take several rounds in a level III flak jacket from a full auto rifle and they stood on one leg, crane style, to demonstrate they would not be knocked down. I have the video in my library. I don't remember the caliber of hand. And as I've said, a Win 70 can pack a bit of a punch, yet Hathcock's account of a VC taking 6 rounds COM and he still kept coming. What can I tell you partner. For me seeing is believing.

I used to believe exactly like Johnathan. I wanted all the velocity I could get in a round. If I had one that went 1300 fps I wanted one that went 1350. That was quite some time ago. I know know three definate things; Function, penetration and accuracy under stress. Everything else is window dressing and things for gun mags. Everything else doesn't matter if the first three are not met.

I don't expect or look for a round to knock someone down whatever the caliber, whatever the platform. I look to hit COM as accurately and as quickly and with as many rounds as is needed to incapacitate the threat.

And I hope NONE of us is ever in this postition regardless of our view point. Stay safe.

That's bullcrap. Reasons?

Shotguns are heavily based on distance. At even 10 meters away, a M3 will go right through anything. Any shotgun can take a head off at a close distance.

A full-auto rifle that can't penetrate a class III flak jacket? Sorry, I doubt it was probably a very old, obsolete rifle that "goes full auto". Even a BAR from WWII will go through almost any flak jacket, not to mention a 5.56 out of a M16 or a 7.62 out of an AK. An AK goes penetrates most metals given they aren't 5 feet thick and very dense. And, if the bullet does not penetrate a vest, then most of the energy is transferred to the person. If the guy wasn't wearing any armor, and the bullet goes through him, then yeah, he will still be standing, just with holes in his body. But if the bullet stops completely, then there is more energy transfer, and he will not be able to balance himself on one leg. One story that isn't verifiable at the best and where the person lacks any credentials does not compare to real-life data on just about every law enforcement and military personnel in the world.

Do you even know what a M3 is? It will knock you back no matter who you are, even at a considerable distance for shotguns.

 

[A.R.K.]

Your getting a bit emotional here. Thats simply not needed. I'm sure the flak jacket was lined with those ceramic type plates that will stop a rifle round. In fact, it was just on 'mail call' a few months ago. Took at round from an AK-47 and only made a small dent. Don't remember the caliber there were using in the video, but it did not knock him down. As for shotguns, believe what you wish to believe. I provided the department and it's public record. 00 buck is merely 9 .33 caliber pellets. Sure it can put a hurt'n on you....sometimes. And sometimes not.

One story that isn't verifiable at the best and where the person lacks any credentials

Thats not aimed at me because I've offered contact numbers for verification of my credentials.

Some people might be taken down by caliber X whereas some others are not. In the same video a man was hit by the bolt on his .50 cal blowing backwards. It perferated his bowels and had more energy transfer than any round due to it's weight, size and velocity. Yet not only was the man not knocked down, he remained conscious until help arrived. I think the video was 'Stopping power- the myth' or something similar. If your interested I'll check. If it's still in production I'll find out where you can order it. If not I'll make you a copy and send it to you.

Either way, I KNOW people shot with a 12g with 00 buck and they were not knocked down. Hatchcock's account was verified by Cpl Burke as I've said. The account is in Marine Sniper his life story.

I don't know what else to tell you. Believe as you wish.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
Your getting a bit emotional here. Thats simply not needed. I'm sure the flak jacket was lined with those ceramic type plates that will stop a rifle round. In fact, it was just on 'mail call' a few months ago. Took at round from an AK-47 and only made a small dent. Don't remember the caliber there were using in the video, but it did not knock him down. As for shotguns, believe what you wish to believe. I provided the department and it's public record. 00 buck is merely 9 .33 caliber pellets. Sure it can put a hurt'n on you....sometimes. And sometimes not.



Thats not aimed at me because I've offered contact numbers for verification of my credentials.

Some people might be taken down by caliber X whereas some others are not. In the same video a man was hit by the bolt on his .50 cal blowing backwards. It perferated his bowels and had more energy transfer than any round due to it's weight, size and velocity. Yet not only was the man not knocked down, he remained conscious until help arrived. I think the video was 'Stopping power- the myth' or something similar. If your interested I'll check. If it's still in production I'll find out where you can order it. If not I'll make you a copy and send it to you.

Either way, I KNOW people shot with a 12g with 00 buck and they were not knocked down. Hatchcock's account was verified by Cpl Burke as I've said. The account is in Marine Sniper his life story.

I don't know what else to tell you. Believe as you wish.

So... When someone pulls the trigger of a powerful shotty like the M3, you're saying the person will not go down... Unless kryptonite is one of your weaknesses, I can not see anyone who've been shot with a M3 to "continue" as you so called it. I have to disagree with you, you presented no information other than vague stories and don't even cite all the facts. It's like the cop who hated M1911's and imitations because it went off in his holster when it was cocked and locked, but the cop had no hospital reports nor would not give the name of his gun (as in what brand as in Colt, Kimber, etc.) nor what holster he used.

What are you trying to say? If it penetrated the guy's bowels, then there would be little energy transfer because the energy goes right through the person so I don't know what you're trying to say. A buck is merely 9 .33 pellets. This goes along the same lines of you trying to say there was only a 1mm difference between the pistol calibers. 9 .33 pellet, at point blank range to 5 meters... They will all hit you, and if it's something like a M3, it will blow you back. I don't know why you're trying to refute this, but your only "evidence" seems to be a freak accident. A person can survive a gun to the head, but how many do survive a bullet to the head? Under 25 people I guess, in the entire history of firearms... And most were in the olden days, with muskets and with barnabuses.

 

[Shinzu]

anyone can pull a trigger, but it takes skill to weild a weapon... lets get back to the real subject at hand.

 

[MartialArtist]

Originally posted by Shinzu
anyone can pull a trigger, but it takes skill to weild a weapon... lets get back to the real subject at hand.

So wielding a pistol takes no skill? Come on, most people don't even know how to reload and cock a pistol like the M1911, nonetheless more "complicated" pistols like Berettas that have tons of things you have to work (which is IMO a waste of time) in order to fire. Aiming is more difficult than you think when starting out, and you'll fumble over everything. You'll fumble over how to get the gun out of the holster, you'll fumble doing a regular draw where you just work the safety, you'll fumble the Israeli draw, your stance will make it so you can't shoot effectively. Contraty to people's opinions, shooting a gun isn't as easy as you think.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Originally posted by Mya Ryu Jitsu
First...you don't know very much about firearms except what comes out of Gunz n Ammo.

Second...you watch to much TV.

Third...this is a documented police shooting from Clearwater PD in Florida. It is public record and anyone can inquire about it.


No, but I know common sense and reality based investigations from military and LE experts in this country. Dr. Fackler and I disagree on a couple of points however, he has the credentials and documentation to back up his view point. Whereas M & S have been shown to be less than forthcoming with where their 'evidence' came from. I highly suspect, as do others in this field that it came from the same place the Strausburg goat test came from....fantasy land.

If you wish to bet your life on ammunition that is proven to underpenetrate in real people in hopes that is going to throw them backwards like in the movies....well, it's your life.

Hope you never have to find out how wrong you are my friend. [/

More examples of you making baseless statements. You should stop pretending that everyone else gets their information the same way you do, ie Gunz &Ammo and TV.

In this thread alone, you have made an endless list of baseless statements that fly in the face of facts and reality.

I have rebutted your baseless assertion with real world facts. The readers can decide for themselves.

No need to be concerned about my safety when it comes to ammo choice. The ammo I have mentioned have the best proven real world records, not some jelly gelatin tested half bake theory that flies in the face of real world result.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

If the story of the 120 lb guy surviving a 12 gauge blast is true, there are details about the case you are hiding from the readers.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

I find it hilarious for someone to accuse MA of getting emotional. lol. He would be the last guy here to get emotional. No need to take my words for it. Just read the way he posts.

 

[MartialArtist]

Here is a theoritical article written by someone who has never used a M1911 or a Beretta in his life but makes some good points

http://usgi1911.tripod.com/m1911m9/

But again, his views are in theory and on paper. He has no physics to back his statements up. It's from the stand-point of a guy who has never shot a gun in his life.

 

[MartialArtist]

Here is an article written by someone who actually shot them but never really used it during wartime

 

[MartialArtist]

nv, forgot the link above

 

[A.R.K.]

Both of you [MA & JN] continue to say I've provided no resourses. Seems to me that firearmstactical.com, IWBA, glocktalk.com, Shawn Dodson, Clearwater PD, Las Vegas PD etc are resourses to check out at your pleasure. We have established that a handgun bullet will not knock you down.

As to a shotgun, Clearwater PD has one case that I am personally aware/involved/investigted in which it did not knock a suspect down. Watermelons in vest demonstrations are not knocked over, neither are cameras with a hot .40. This is fact. You are welcome to disagree if you like.

MA, I don't believe I've ever commented on an M3. JN, if you want to continue sarcasm then by all means do so. But several people here, including professionals disagree with your 'knock down' assesment.

And again, I hope you, me and everyone else here never finds themselves in a situation where they need to use a firearm.

Stay safe.

 

[Johnathan Napalm]

Seems like when the 40 has a 96% success rate of "one shot stop ", and all you have been doing is pointing out the 4% exceptional cases AND purposefully turning a blind eye to the other 96% of the cases that goes against your particular favourite theory. Whatever you are trying to prove, you are not helping yourself there by this kind of distortion and manipulation of the facts.

As I have mentioned earlier, no need for you to ever worry about the ammo I select. Real world results speak louder than gelatin jelly tests.

 

[MartialArtist]

Some of the sources like the IWBA give only physics to back up their statements, and yes, they are right. The guy is obviously pretty good at physics. But I believe he failed human anatomy/physiology.

Glock Talk is an internet board, and many shoot for sport (matches, etc.) and with some with average experience. The PD's use 9mm because they need the 18+1 rounds. Again, the officers that do everyday things to keep the town or city safe use 9mm. However, the ones that get down and dirty against very experienced criminals, terrorists, enemies in battle... They prefer the .45

 

[A.R.K.]

JN,

Seems like when the 40 has a 96% success rate of "one shot stop ",

With respect, I have to disagree with OSS statistics. They are not based on reality. The employ data that at least in part has been publically discredited by the very source represented and is based on arbitrary criteria.

First, M & S's OSS statistics have been debunked based on their data base for nearly a decade in professional journals. In several cases, the source of their alleged shootings be it a department or individual have come forth and stated that either the incident never happened or it happened in an entirely different manner that was reported by M & S. This is not in dispute and has been reported numerous times in professional journals. M & S's response has been to sequestor their data base or ignore the charges altogether. This is intellectual dishonety to use statistics that were either created or altered to portray a preconcieved idea.

Second, their OSS criteria is unrealistic at best. In order to be included in their data base the shot must have been an unobstructed torso shot. I would offer a loose percentage of 70% of police/citizen shootings are through outstretched limbs or common barriers such as doors, walls, windshields etc. To represent only unobstructed shots is to taint the results towards rounds that would normally under-penatrate in living tissue. In addition to this, they view an individual who falls down within 10 feet of point of shooting as a stop without regards to weapon used by the BG or incapacitation. For example, the situation I used earlier in which the Bg was shot in the leg, breaking the femur and fell down. Going soley on their arbitrary guidline of 'stops' this could be counted as a stop. But only because his weapon was an edged weapon and his victim was out of range when he fell down. Had this been a firearm he would still have been capable of returning fire. So it is only a stop if the situation permits and can change from situation to situation. It is arbitrary.

So we have a data base that only represents a small fraction of shootings in individual calibers, a data base that has questionable content of which some has been proven faulty and a shooting guidline that does not address common shooting obstacles or distinguish between incapacitation and continued threat capabilities.

I do not say this to embarras you Jonathan, I too once felt their data was strret proven results. However, as the years went by and new information surfaced I saw the faulty assumptions on which their definitive study was based.

Jonathan, you spoke of the 135 grain .40 S & W round. Because of it's sectional density it can be counted on to average perhaps 10 inches of penetration. In a perfect, unobstructed torso shot on an average male that might be enough penetration to reach a vital or CNS. But it is not a perfect world and one should not count on a best case senerio. One should hope for a best case but prepare for a worst case senerio such as oblique angle, cross torso, outstretched limbs and common barriers.

The 124+P Gold dot 9mm routinely has around 15 inches of penetration and has an excellent record of barrier penetration and adequate tissue penetration. We have had through and through shots but the rounds were usually recovered feet away, not down the street as some unreliable gun rags would have you believe.

As I have mentioned earlier, no need for you to ever worry about the ammo I select. Real world results speak louder than gelatin jelly tests.

I think I am more concerned about your safety than you are mine. I am not talking about jello tests. If the lab results back up real life that is fine. But the OSS does not touch on real life either. If it did it would have to comprise all shootings in a particular caliber/weigh/bullet type and then assess the results. This of course has not, and could not happen due to the tremendously difficult nature of the work load. The OSS is reletively small in comparision to the overall number of shootings. It has been proven that at least some of the data base was created as well as altered. I know that the 9mm by several manufacturers has done as well as can be expected from a handgun. Same with the .45 and the others as well. I no longer trust my life to ammo [regardless of caliber] that under penatrates or is the expensive exotic type that also underpenetrates. That is my choice. I want something that I know will function well in my pistol, something that has a very good change of adequate penetration and something that is accurate under stress.

St. Petersburg PD has recently gone to the G22 in .40. There qualifications in stress fire have dropped dramatically agency wide from when they used the G17 in 9mm.

Some of the sources like the IWBA give only physics to back up their statements, and yes, they are right. The guy is obviously pretty good at physics. But I believe he failed human anatomy/physiology.

With respect, you say the guy . Could you be more specific because the IWBA comprises multiple individuals from the military, LE agencies as well as technical entities.

Glock Talk is an internet board, and many shoot for sport (matches, etc.) and with some with average experience.

Yes, but there are several forums there in which professionals post to each other as well as the public at large. Including Shawn Dodson, Gabe Suarez, Terry Murdock, Fernandez [one time of Triton cartridge] etc and even occassionally Marshal Evans etc. Specific forums such as the Caliber forum or Cop talk is a good place to inquire their input.

Good talking with you both. Stay safe.