What was Wing Chun designed for?

[Flying Crane]

So....you're saying that Wing Chun may not possess everything needed in a fight and may have to actually do something from outside the system? It may need to actually "gap fill"..... to quote a resident expert? And if that is true....which is better?....to improvise with any old thing at the time and hope it works?.....or to actually train something that has footwork and strategies for that very purpose?

No, I'm actually saying that sometimes we just need to be human beings and just move. It's not something taught as any specific martial method. It's just being a person. No martial method can teach you exactly how to move in every situation. So we gotta just wing it simetimes. This is not gap filling or borrowing material from elsewhere. It's just moving, and if you do that, it isn't abandoning wing chun. You might need to chase someone, or run away from someone, or step out of the way, or spin away from a push, or fall and roll and jump back up from a push, or whatever. That stuff may not the specifically taught in your wing chun, and neither is it borrowed or stolen from elsewhere. It's just movement because well, you know humans are animals, and animals move, it's what we do, and not every movement needs to be learned in a martial context.

 

[KPM]

No, I'm actually saying that sometimes we just need to be human beings and just move. It's not something taught as any specific martial method. It's just being a person. No martial method can teach you exactly how to move in every situation. So we gotta just wing it simetimes. This is not gap filling or borrowing material from elsewhere. It's just moving, and if you do that, it isn't abandoning wing chun. You might need to chase someone, or run away from someone, or step out of the way, or spin away from a push, or fall and roll and jump back up from a push, or whatever. That stuff may not the specifically taught in your wing chun, and neither is it borrowed or stolen from elsewhere. It's just movement because well, you know humans are animals, and animals move, it's what we do, and not every movement needs to be learned in a martial context.

Sure! And I'm saying that if you know there is a high likelihood that you are going to have to move in a specific context or situation, why not actually train specifically for that rather than leaving it to chance? And if you decided to train specifically for that possibility, wouldn't you train something that is meant to work in that situation??

 

[Flying Crane]

Sure! And I'm saying that if you know there is a high likelihood that you are going to have to move in a specific context or situation, why not actually train specifically for that rather than leaving it to chance? And if you decided to train specifically for that possibility, wouldn't you train something that is meant to work in that situation??

Well, I guess I feel like once you are outside of some engagement range, then movement becomes much more natural and less scripted. Meaning, certain footwork has relevance when actively engaged, and does not when there is no engagement.

So my comments are really aimed at this notion of wing chun having no footwork for a longer range engagement. People talking about a boxer outrunning or out chasing a wing chun guy, stuff like that. Well when you are too far out to engage, you don't need special footwork. If you are too far away and need to bridge the gap, do so. There may not be any special footwork for that. It's called "walking" or perhaps "running".

 

[Juany118]

His point is you can't train/plan f

Sure! And I'm saying that if you know there is a high likelihood that you are going to have to move in a specific context or situation, why not actually train specifically for that rather than leaving it to chance? And if you decided to train specifically for that possibility, wouldn't you train something that is meant to work in that situation??

His point is, I believe, that you cannot train plan for every possible contingency and that Martial arts acknowledge this.

As such, to use footwork as an example, the foot woork training in a particular martial art is to teach you the principles of maintaining structure and power generation. After that foundation has fully "set", so long as you move in accordance with those principles, even if it does not precisely mirror the drill, you are using that martial art.

 

[Phobius]

I keep stating weapons here.

But I remember one training session we had where one person chased me with a long pole and I had nothing but butterfly swords to defend myself. Not talking about the drilling kind where you do a move as if taken from the form.

What you notice then is that even if you do keep your structure there is such a great need to cover distance fast. Great for practising footwork, a little risky in terms of that large stick can bash your skull in if you are not careful.

Anyways, a short story shorter. We ended up using movements that were part of regular footwork exercises. At least those we do in our WT, and not some movements stuck to Biu Ma. Maybe we are trying to adapt to learn more movement both in body and legs, since we also introduce weapons a lot more often than most. Not as a platform for mastering weapons but as a training tool for footwork, body structure and extended sensitivity.

One thing you also learn when speaking about sharp weapons, positioning often beats speed. However if you both can position yourself correctly then speed helps declare who lives to see another day. Footwork to position yourself correctly requires training and drills, speed requires training up your explosiveness in muscles.

At least this is my belief. Sometimes I am not aware what has gotten me to develop new skills.

 

[Juany118]

I keep stating weapons here.

But I remember one training session we had where one person chased me with a long pole and I had nothing but butterfly swords to defend myself. Not talking about the drilling kind where you do a move as if taken from the form.

What you notice then is that even if you do keep your structure there is such a great need to cover distance fast. Great for practising footwork, a little risky in terms of that large stick can bash your skull in if you are not careful.

Anyways, a short story shorter. We ended up using movements that were part of regular footwork exercises. At least those we do in our WT, and not some movements stuck to Biu Ma. Maybe we are trying to adapt to learn more movement both in body and legs, since we also introduce weapons a lot more often than most. Not as a platform for mastering weapons but as a training tool for footwork, body structure and extended sensitivity.

One thing you also learn when speaking about sharp weapons, positioning often beats speed. However if you both can position yourself correctly then speed helps declare who lives to see another day. Footwork to position yourself correctly requires training and drills, speed requires training up your explosiveness in muscles.

At least this is my belief. Sometimes I am not aware what has gotten me to develop new skills.

Many actually say that what you describe (learning how to cover distance quickly) is one of the reasons for the BJD being in the system. I actually see THIS as the biggest weakness in WC.

Putting a fair bit of the "fighting footwork" of WC at CK and later creates a false impression imo. On the other hand the Kali I study, since you learn not just empty hand but stick, sword, and knife from the beginning means you need the "fighting footwork", timing and distance etc., from day one.

 

[KPM]

So my comments are really aimed at this notion of wing chun having no footwork for a longer range engagement. People talking about a boxer outrunning or out chasing a wing chun guy, stuff like that. Well when you are too far out to engage, you don't need special footwork. If you are too far away and need to bridge the gap, do so. There may not be any special footwork for that. It's called "walking" or perhaps "running".

And I'm saying that there is far more to effective long range footwork than just "walking" or "running" after or away from someone! That is what you resort to if you have never trained any actual long range footwork! So again, if you think you are likely to actually find yourself in a situation where you are running away from or after someone in long range, why wouldn't you actually practice and train to do that? And if you are going to actually make it part of your practice, why wouldn't you practice a version shown to be effective???

 

[KPM]

His point is, I believe, that you cannot train plan for every possible contingency and that Martial arts acknowledge this.

----Having to move around in the long range is not exactly an unusual occurrence or contingency! Why wouldn't you train for it???

 

[KPM]

Many actually say that what you describe (learning how to cover distance quickly) is one of the reasons for the BJD being in the system. I actually see THIS as the biggest weakness in WC.

.

I agree! And that would question the idea of Wing Chun being based on "efficiency", wouldn't it? How efficient is a system if it leaves the actual effective fighting footwork for one of the final stages of training that most people won't get to for 5 years if ever??? This suggests that one of the things western Boxing can bring to Wing Chun is effective fighting footwork practiced right from the beginning!

 

[Phobius]

I agree! And that would question the idea of Wing Chun being based on "efficiency", wouldn't it? How efficient is a system if it leaves the actual effective fighting footwork for one of the final stages of training that most people won't get to for 5 years if ever??? This suggests that one of the things western Boxing can bring to Wing Chun is effective fighting footwork practiced right from the beginning!

We dont wait 5 years. This is something we train from day one more or less. This is actually not really true because the beginners need to learn structure before doing improved footwork. First you learn to crawl, then walk before you can run.

Waiting 5-10 years to study footwork is not a wise move. This should also not be blamed on WT. The footwork is there, even if you yourself wait so long to train it. I have seen no good explanation or rules that state one must not train this until after several years.

Now please do not call WB for effective footwork. It is very much perfected for a context without kicks or grappling.

 

[Juany118]

I agree! And that would question the idea of Wing Chun being based on "efficiency", wouldn't it? How efficient is a system if it leaves the actual effective fighting footwork for one of the final stages of training that most people won't get to for 5 years if ever??? This suggests that one of the things western Boxing can bring to Wing Chun is effective fighting footwork practiced right from the beginning!

Well it's not the last stage. In TWC you start to learn the footwork in the SLT stage via drills, in CK it starts to appear in a form, and BJD refines it even further but the footwork is always there. In the other Lineage I studied it was similar. While there were admittedly more stationary drills in the SLT phase there was still "fighting footwork".

As for efficiency I think the idea was this. Remember the stories of how much it cost YM to learn WC? WC at that time was something that involved 2 things in China, money and liesure time. Once YM had to teach in HK, it was again about money because that was his lively hood. That, imo, encouraged a very deliberate method of teaching. SLT is in essence learning the alphabet (which includes structure) and then after you learn the alphabet they teach you how to spell words, next write sentences, then a poems etc. The end product itself can be efficient even if the method of teaching is less so but I do think the time frame you have (5 years) is exaggerated, at least for YM lineage, especially TWC.

 

[Flying Crane]

And I'm saying that there is far more to effective long range footwork than just "walking" or "running" after or away from someone! That is what you resort to if you have never trained any actual long range footwork! So again, if you think you are likely to actually find yourself in a situation where you are running away from or after someone in long range, why wouldn't you actually practice and train to do that? And if you are going to actually make it part of your practice, why wouldn't you practice a version shown to be effective???

Alright, well, I just don't see the problem here. I think it is artificially manufactured, I don't believe itnactually exists.

But it's your system, not mine, so carry on as you see fit.

 

[Juany118]

Alright, well, I just don't see the problem here. I think it is artificially manufactured, I don't believe itnactually exists.

But it's your system, not mine, so carry on as you see fit.

I have to agree. Initially I thought the argument made some sense because to me the problem with Wing Chun isn't the footwork when you know the system the footwork works it's no less wrapping and its advancement than any other traditional martial art. As a matter of fact one of the core premises of the art is to attack quickly and brutally.

Where I see there being issues in some lineages is perhaps too much focus on straight attacks, both hands strikes and kicks. With the hand strikes, to be consistently effective, that means entering and maintaining trapping range because inevitably you're going to have to remove a barrier at some point. This isn't true for all lineages though some teach round kicks and round hand strikes such as the Buffalo punch. These rounded strikes allow you to continue to have better Effectiveness outside of trapping range because it gives you the possibility of going around a barrier rather than wedging it or trapping it. That's where I thought @KPM was going with the boxing comment. I didn't know he meant the footwork as well.

 

[KPM]

We dont wait 5 years. This is something we train from day one more or less.

---Is that not rather unusual for the Wing Tsun lineage? I"ve heard plenty of other WT people talk about the advanced footwork being in the knife form but having to be darn near at the "Master" level before ever actually being taught the knife form.


Now please do not call WB for effective footwork. It is very much perfected for a context without kicks or grappling.

---If that were true, why would so many MMA fighter also be doing what is essentially boxing footwork????

 

[KPM]

Well it's not the last stage. In TWC you start to learn the footwork in the SLT stage via drills, in CK it starts to appear in a form, and BJD refines it even further but the footwork is always there.

First, you and I both know that TWC is outside the "norm" of Ip Man Wing Chun as far as footwork goes. So things I have been saying don't necessarily apply to TWC.

Second, in Ip Man lineages other than TWC, the footwork learned as the "basics" from the Chum Kiu form is not the same footwork that is taught in the Bart Jam Dao form.

 

[Juany118]

First, you and I both know that TWC is outside the "norm" of Ip Man Wing Chun as far as footwork goes. So things I have been saying don't necessarily apply to TWC.

Second, in Ip Man lineages other than TWC, the footwork learned as the "basics" from the Chum Kiu form is not the same footwork that is taught in the Bart Jam Dao form.

Yes but even the WSLVT I took via the Gary Lam method was fast on entry. It was different and TWC's method makes more sense to me but that is personal preference.

As for the last bit CK in TWC's footwork is still a bit different than BJD, that's why I described BJD as refining it. Think of it like forging a blade. I can forge the blade and just sharpen it. "The knife will keel" to quote Doug Marcaida . Or I can polish the blade. It will look more beautiful, and if poliched correctly slice better as there will be less friction along the sides of the blade. BJD to my mind is the final polish. It's also a polish that, in part, may not even be necessary for everyone because some of the lessons are those someone can already understand if they don't just think about the art they are taught but think first of themselves as a flowing human being using the art. Sometimes I think people get so trapped inside the minutia of an art the art ends up using them.

 

[Flying Crane]

I have to agree. Initially I thought the argument made some sense because to me the problem with Wing Chun isn't the footwork when you know the system the footwork works it's no less wrapping and its advancement than any other traditional martial art. As a matter of fact one of the core premises of the art is to attack quickly and brutally.

Where I see there being issues in some lineages is perhaps too much focus on straight attacks, both hands strikes and kicks. With the hand strikes, to be consistently effective, that means entering and maintaining trapping range because inevitably you're going to have to remove a barrier at some point. This isn't true for all lineages though some teach round kicks and round hand strikes such as the Buffalo punch. These rounded strikes allow you to continue to have better Effectiveness outside of trapping range because it gives you the possibility of going around a barrier rather than wedging it or trapping it. That's where I thought @KPM was going with the boxing comment. I didn't know he meant the footwork as well.

Yeah, honestly I find these wing chun threads weird because it looks to me like a bunch of wing chun folks insisting that wing chun is nothing but holes and gaps and shortcomings in the method. If people feel that way, then why do they train wing chun? Go do some other method that they have more faith in.

 

[drop bear]

Yeah, honestly I find these wing chun threads weird because it looks to me like a bunch of wing chun folks insisting that wing chun is nothing but holes and gaps and shortcomings in the method. If people feel that way, then why do they train wing chun? Go do some other method that they have more faith in.

Hopefully to make it better.

 

[KPM]

Yeah, honestly I find these wing chun threads weird because it looks to me like a bunch of wing chun folks insisting that wing chun is nothing but holes and gaps and shortcomings in the method. If people feel that way, then why do they train wing chun? Go do some other method that they have more faith in.

Well, if you are referring to me, I think you have missed my point and have not followed my premise very well. First, Wing Chun works great for what it was designed for! And that's close range fighting. I have suggested that Wing Chun can be made even more effective by giving it a "long range game." Numerous people seem to have had difficulty grasping the fact that having a "long range game" is different from having a strategy to survive at long range long enough to be able to close the gap into the preferred "close range game." Wing Chun guys typically just step into close range and start going at it. You see this a LOT in clips of Wing Chun guys free-sparring. Just look for yourself. Having a "long range game" means you can conduct the entire fight from long range. That clearly is not what Wing Chun was designed to do nor optimized for. There is nothing wrong with that. I'm sure plenty of people are perfectly happy with that. But what I don't understand is why so many people seem to want to deny all of this. Including you, and you don't even do Wing Chun!

Now sure, one could just expect to improvise and use "natural body motion" when caught out at long range and might do fine. Someone could be confident in their close range skills and their ability to move into close range and might do fine. But another option is to actually train a method that does have a good "long range game." Maybe that's for you. Maybe not. But to deny the value of doing something like that just seems absurd. To think that Wing Chun can do just as well at long range (something it wasn't designed for) as a method was actually designed for long range just seems absurd.

My premise hasn't been that Wing Chun is worthless and ineffective. My premise has been that there is room for improvement. Room for an "upgrade." Room for some "modernization." Do I expect that everyone will want to or feel the need to "modernize" their Wing Chun? Of course not! But I also don't expect people to flat out deny that there is potential to do such a thing.

 

[DanT]

I bet Connor McGregor is practicing boxing though.

The line between martial arts are just human constructed concepts.

Someone just made a rule and said you can't play tennis with a golf club. That is their rule. Not mine.

Go to Wimbledon and play tennis with a golf club and see what happens.