Different Approaches to the Lap-Sau Drill

geezer

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Most VT/WC/WT branches do some variation of lap-sau drill. The way these drills are trained varies a lot. Different methods train different attributes.I'm curious as to how people see these drills and what attributes they train.

Here is a very old clip of Wong Shun Leung demonstrating a very basic lap-sau cycle:

Next, here's Tsui Sheung Tin demonstrating with similarly shaped movements, but a very different use of energy:

A very different kind of lap-sau (sometimes even re-named "jut-chuen-da" cycle) is trained in the WT system and its derivatives as shown here:

And finally, here's a recent clip of Alan Orr doing what he feels to be a functional version of lap-sau training:

Each of these versions clearly leads in a different direction. Some would refer to them as either "right or wrong". I prefer to look at them instead in terms of the attributes they train, and assess them in terms of functionality, keeping in mind that what is functional may depend upon the individual.

So do you train a version of lap-sau? How do you do it, what attributes does it train, and how does it fit into your overall VT/WC/WT?
 
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geezer

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Nobody has an opinion? Well, here's a comment. The first way I saw this taught was similar to what you see at the beginning of the second (TST) clip. Then I changed lineages and learned the WT method like what is shown in the third clip by Alan Richter. This is the core system I have trained, and I've been exposed to various similar interpretations including that of my old sifu, LT, a so a more aggressive version of the same by Emin Boztepe, and the method used by my current instructor and kung-fu brother.

I've never trained with any WSL people, except I once met a junior level Gary Lam student and if I remember properly, his lap-sau sequence used what appeared to me to be same WSL movement pattern shown in the first clip. Compared to the other versions I had experienced, the bong and punch seemed more ballistic, with more forward pressure.

The one person whose method I've had zero contact with is Alan Orr's. So why is it that I get the impression that what he shows seems more like what my body wants to do when the pressure is on i.e. what feels natural and functional?

Maybe because I'm also short and started out with wrestling as a kid, so I like being in close, keeping the pressure on... or am I just going through a delusional phase again. None of the rest of you have that response. Not even KPM???
 

Gerry Seymour

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Well, you know I always have an opinion, Geezer, but it would be horribly uninformed on this topic.
 

Danny T

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Geezer, I have trained all the variations shown in some manner.
I tell my students to not get caught up in all the differences as to being right or wrong but that the drill can be used to expound different actions.
Right...Wrong...nah just different.
The punch can be presented as a straight punch, a back fist, a hammer fist, or a sot sao.
There are several different switches we use as well.
 

KPM

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I initially learned the Lop Da drill very much like the WSL version in the first video. I've never done it the LT way, and honestly it looks to me like it is too much "Wing Chun-centric." In other words it looks like it would not likely work against a non-Wing Chun guy that is NOT throwing a nice straight punch. I've played with the Alan Orr version a bit, but probably not enough. This version is specifically used against an opponent NOT throwing a nice straight Wing Chun punch. I think his video course explained it and covered it better than this clip.

Two other versions I have learned:

The Pin Sun Wing Chun version uses a "Gwai Choi" rather than a straight punch. You do not lose contact with the partner's forearm at all during the drill. You don't really "grab" at all with the Lop. You pivot against his arm, smack his fist down with your Lop, and do a descending back-knuckle strike aimed at the bridge of the nose. It is a "1 count" for each person, not a "2 count" or"Lop & Punch." The idea in application is when you roll from the Bong your elbow rides up and pins the other guy's arm just above his elbow as your arm swings through with a descending back-knuckle strike to the bridge of his nose. If you are sinking your weight at the same time this can be a very powerful and devastating strike.

TWC also does the stationary version much like the WSL example. But TWC also has a version that uses a step. From Bong the person does a forward step as he Lops and punches and the other person steps back as he does the Bong. Then he steps forward with the Lop and Punch and the original partner steps back with the Bong.

I think these different versions represent different ranges. The PSWC version assumes you are already in close (like the Alan Orr version) and is practiced at a distance where you can actually hit the partner. The TWC version assumes you are further out and have to close in for your punch to land. Of course, it also assumes that in application the other guy doesn't have a chance to step back! The WSL version is kind of in the middle. You aren't really close enough to land the punch without a step, yet you aren't including the step in the drill. And before LFJ blows a gasket....yes we all understand that WSLVT does not teach "applications" and what is being trained here is skills and attributes. I haven't done the LT version, so I would have to actually pay closer attention to Richter's video to really comment.

Overall, this shows the versatility of the "Bong to Lop and Punch" technique. I've also been playing with this recently from a "Wing Chun Boxing" perspective, and it can also work quite well with more "angular" punches rather than the typical nice straight Wing Chun punches.

I show the PSWC version here at the 17 minute mark, some background starting at about 16 minutes:


Here is Phil talking about the TWC version:

 
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LFJ

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TWC also does the stationary version much like the WSL example. But TWC also has a version that uses a step...

...The WSL version is kind of in the middle. You aren't really close enough to land the punch without a step, yet you aren't including the step in the drill.

The "stationary version" is not a "version". It's just the basic platform for this type of drilling.

We can hit without a step.
We can step in any direction, moving all over the room.
We can do all kinds of things from this basic format.

And before LFJ blows a gasket....yes we all understand that WSLVT does not teach "applications" and what is being trained here is skills and attributes.

Right, I think it's worth more than a single application idea you may or may not ever use.

In your 1st video, you get deflecting with bong and rolling over to drop a backfist on the nose.
In your 2nd video, you get throwing out bong-wu as a shield to block straight or round punches ("wing block").

You may well use these things, but I think there's a lot more to be gained when you aren't thinking of a particular application idea.
 

KPM

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^^^^ Like I said, its versatile. I agree that someone shouldn't be thinking of a "particular application idea" when using it. You just flow with what presents at the time depending upon the distance and circumstance. But if you haven't trained it under various distances and with various steps, etc.....it would be easy to think of it as only working one way....and that would be locking it into a "particular application idea."
 

T_Ray

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Lap sau drill is a training environment. A development platform, in the same way chi sau is a training environment and development platform.
It seems many lineages only received the basic bong/lap cycle and not much else? When they say we do the lap sau drill, its like someone who only ever learned to do poon sau saying they do chi sau training. The bong/lap cycle is just the beginning of lap sau training.
There are many drills that are trained from lap sau. In WSLVT there are 20 basic movements (including footwork) which can be trained on both sides (with appropriate responses) by both partners with varying degrees of co-operation and improvisation, which develop specific VT attributes.
It is trained alongside chi sau, and the two environments can work together and cross over to develop VT fighting skills.
Those who only see Lap sau drilling as the basic bong lap cycle will not appreciate its significance in VT training, and wonder why WSL VT students train it, and value it so much.
 

LFJ

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It seems many lineages only received the basic bong/lap cycle and not much else? When they say we do the lap sau drill, its like someone who only ever learned to do poon sau saying they do chi sau training.

Next thread on "the chi-sau drill ". :woot:
 
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geezer

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Lap sau drill is a training environment. A development platform, in the same way chi sau is a training environment and development platform...

This is certainly true in the WT/VT version I trained. It is precisely a "development platform" much like the rolling arms in poon sau. Like chi-sau, it trains attributes attributes and should not be thought of as something that is directly equivalent to fighting. Also like chi-sau, it has inumerable variations involving a wide variety of techniques, attacks and defenses, steps and turns, and so on... but without both arms engaged or sticking.

The basic platform we use is like the one Alan Richter demonstrated in his video, but from there we have many options, including using pressure to create space (distance) and add kicks to the mix, or closing and going into elbow attack cycles... or engaging both arms and flowing into the poon-sau platform.

The two potential problems I see with this system is that first of all, you can end up spending so much of your time drilling that you can become very good at lap-sau and chi-sau and still be a poor fighter for lack of sparring.

Secondly, many of these drills (in WC/WT/VT in general -- all lineages) are, as KPM noted, "WC-centric". That's one thing that appeals to me about the versions Alan Orr demonstrates. His movements deal with punches coming across, not just straight, centerline shots. They remind me more of some of the Escrima drills I have worked. It will be interesting to play with them a bit.
 
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geezer

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Next thread on "the chi-sau drill ". :woot:

Actually, if you phrased that as the "chi sau drills" ...or "chi sau training platform" (to borrow from T-Ray) I think you would have a pretty accurate description.

Too often people confuse Chi-sau with sparring or fighting. Then you end up with something like the Obasi-Gledhill foolishness.
 

KPM

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^^^^^ Yeah, I learned all the variations and transitions from the basic Lop Da platform as well. I don't think too much of them any more. I do think they are far too "Wing Chun-centric". Most rely on the other guy reacting in a very "Wing Chun way." So they aren't very "high yield" in a real free-fight or sparring exchange. However, the "basic cycle" does kick in and have good applications in sparring because it is simple and rather reflexive once you've learned it well.

Far too many things like this (and all the complicated Lat Sau training) in "classical" Wing Chun are trained and drilled against another person doing "classical" Wing Chun. That is not a reliable standard for real fighting/sparring because the opponent is very rarely going to react and respond like your fellow Wing Chun student will!
 

LFJ

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^^^^^ Yeah, I learned all the variations and transitions as well. Don't think too much of them now. I do think they are far too "Wing Chun-centric". Most rely on the other guy reacting in a very "Wing Chun way." So they aren't very "high yield" in a real free-fight or sparring exchange. However, the "basic cycle" does kick in and have good applications in sparring.

Everything is in stages. Don't go putting the cart before the horse now.

We can introduce other types of opponents in pre-sparring drills, and free sparring.
But, CS and LS drills are not the place for that for a reason.

Drills in CS and LS are done with clean VT actions because we are using each other to test and develop particular VT attributes and skills, like working on the wooden dummy. That can't be done using responses from other styles, like how we can't develop much VT using a CLF dummy. We need to pair VT structures to develop mutually.

Calling it "VT-centric" or "low yield in a real fight" is entirely missing the point and seeing your partner as an opponent. That's a fundamental misconception and misuse of the training system.
 

KPM

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^^^^You could be right. But then again we never see it actually being used against an actual opponent who isn't a training partner. And I'm not talking just about the WSLVT version, but all versions of Wing Chun that get into the more complicated switches and transitions and multiple count responses and such in both CS and LS.
 
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geezer

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Good Lord! Both KPM and LFJ making sense and more or less agreeing! The apocalypse can't be far away. :D

As for myself, I see the need for "WC/VT-centric" drilling for precisely the reasons LFJ enumerated. I also se the need to drill with people outside WC/VT.
 

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Hey Geezer, I have no doubt that Richter is a great instructor but don't you think that he should instruct his partner to keep his chin tucked back? :D:D
That mug's got crosshairs all over it!
 

Cephalopod

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I Guess I should have an opinion on the actual thread topic.

Forgive my lack of Chinese comprehension but if lop sau is translated as 'grabbing hand' or something like it, can the last 2 vids be fairly called lop sau drills?

Richter's drill looks conceptually like our biu sau method of clearing center while Orr's demo looks like how you would go through the lop sau movement if you can't grab due to fact that you're wearing 12 oz gloves. This is similar to our elbow concepts from the beginning of biu-tze.

Okay, that concludes today's semantics lesson. Bring your report in on Friday.

FWIW, When we train the bong lap drill in our group, we often focus on driving the bong inward, a bit like Chu Shong Tin is showing at 3:37 but with bong dynamics much more similar to WSL's. We're taught that as soon as you feel the opponents palm contact your wrist in this way, the quicker you flip into bong and drive forward, the more likely you are to contact and deflect his punching arm if he wrenches down violently with his lop sau.

On that note, is that something you folks mix in with your bong-lop drill? Occasionally wrenching down violently to test the opponents defense?
 
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geezer

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Cephlopod! --First I ought to clarify. I don't personally know Alex Richter -- We do have some mutual friends and I might have had an email exchange with him at some point, that's it. So I probably know you guys better. We do both originally hail from the same "WT" lineage though, and his youtube clips are the clearest and closest to what I've learned that I've found.

As far as Richter's "lap-sau cycle" goes, you are right. there is no lap or grab. That is why even thought we call the whole drill "lap sau cycle", some groups now call these particular movements jut-chuen-da. The sequence starts with a jut-sau, then the other hand shoots forward as a chuen-sau, which then is converted to a punch (da) as it crosses the bridge. At the same time the orginal jut snaps back into wu-sau so that you never leave your "two hands on one" --except for the briefest instant in which your punching hand crosses the bridge.

Finally, regarding the bong-sau in WT, ...normally the arm does not lift-up or turn over into bong on its own. Instead, it presses forward and is turned to bong by the opponent's incoming force according to the saying, when you push down the head (wrist in this case) you flip up the tail (elbow).

So, if somebody yanks down really hard to test you, you don't resist or pull up, but instead press forward letting the arm bend down with the pull, bowing forward like a spring. When this happens, depending on the energy received, you may simply strike out with the rear hand and if needed, you may simultaneously step in with the force. If the jolt is very strong, you may step in and apply a butting elbow or shoulder punch. The one thing you don't do is pull back against the force.
 

LFJ

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we never see it actually being used against an actual opponent who isn't a training partner

Depends on what you mean by "it".

Of course, you won't see choreographed movements or multistep drills. You aren't going to see someone do the dummy form on an opponent either, but the attributes and skills being trained absolutely carry over. That's kind of the point.

A lot of the time, what we're training is unseen even in the drills by those who don't know what they're looking at, such as development of the right muscular connections in the punch, or the elbow conditioning missed for the "techniques".
 

KPM

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^^^^ I don't disagree with that on a basics level. What I'm talking about are the involved more complicated things like the various "switches" from one side to the other in LS that rely on the guy having his hand up in a proper Wu Sau....like a Wing Chun guy. Or the multiple step techniques in CS that assume the guy is going to stand straight up in front of you and not "bob & weave" or simply step back and away. Or the more involved techniques in either LS or CS that only work when the partner is throwing a nice straight centerline punch and keeping both hands on the center. Show me video of a single real sparring exchange where a Wing Chun guy does something as straight-forward as a Bong/Lop Da motion on one side and then switches it to the other side with another Bong/Lop Da motion on that side.

So I'm not sure which "attributes and skills" you are developing with the more involved LS training combinations, but the technique combinations themselves certainly don't translate over to real fighting methods that I have ever seen. Which begs the question.....why not develop those same attributes and skills using techniques that actually DO show up in real fighting??
 

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