What was Wing Chun designed for?

[geezer]

And, if VT/WC/WC doesn't favor close range work, then why would no less than Wong Shun Leung choose to title his well known instructional video as...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dMJxSlAnNdM/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[Flying Crane]

And, if VT/WC/WC doesn't favor close range work, then why would no less than Wong Shun Leung choose to title his well known instructional video as...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dMJxSlAnNdM/maxresdefault.jpg

And yet the photo on that link that shows him throwing a punch, is a pretty classic "long" punch.

I maintain that it is an artificial distinction without much meaning.

 

[geezer]

Personally, I see Flying Crane's point that if you really understand the theory of the art, then you can make it work regardless of range. But to do so means moving beyond rigid ideas of technique. And that gets us to where KPM is. Searching and innovating to come up with a way of doing his WC effectively at long range, and in a way that works for him.

So maybe you guys aren't really so far apart in what you are saying.

As for LFJ and Joy (Vajramusti), they seem to have found what works well for them within their lineage, as have I ... for the most part, anyway.

...On the other hand, I also see so many theoretical similarities between what I do and some other arts, that I am driven to experiment and play with new ideas. I'm sure my old sifu would disapprove and tell me that I am wasting my time. But heck, everybody else I know tells me that my entire involvement in martial arts is a waste of time. So screw it. I'm going continue trying different things and just have some fun with it.

 

[geezer]

And yet the photo on that link that shows him throwing a punch, is a pretty classic "long" punch. I maintain that it is an artificial distinction without much meaning.

Inconceivable!
http://www.3quarksdaily.com/.a/6a00d8341c562c53ef01b7c7e95e5e970b-250wi

https://images-na.ssl-images-amazon.com/images/I/51adePVydCL._SX325_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dMJxSlAnNdM/maxresdefault.jpg

 

[KPM]

Hopelessly lost-wandering around without a compass !!!

Another drive-by one-liner that contributes nothing to the thread? You are getting good at those!

 

[KPM]

And, if VT/WC/WC doesn't favor close range work, then why would no less than Wong Shun Leung choose to title his well known instructional video as...

https://i.ytimg.com/vi/dMJxSlAnNdM/maxresdefault.jpg

That was going to be my next response, but you beat me to it!

WSL called Wing Chun...."the Science of In-fighting." Not ...."the Science of Long Range fighting." Not..."the Science of Fighting at any Range." He called it the Science of "In-Fighting"....close range fighting.

 

[KPM]

And yet the photo on that link that shows him throwing a punch, is a pretty classic "long" punch.

I maintain that it is an artificial distinction without much meaning.

Jazzed up for a cover photo. I don't recall him ever punching like that on the actual video itself. And obviously, it meant something to WSL, or he wouldn't have put it in the title! He could have just titled the video "Wing Chun: The Science of Street Fighting" or something along those lines.

 

[KPM]

Personally, I see Flying Crane's point that if you really understand the theory of the art, then you can make it work regardless of range.

---And I don't disagree with that! But there is still the fact that some things work better at certain ranges than others! That's just simple common sense. There is still the fact that some martial arts methods were designed to work optimally at one given range. Again that's just simple common sense. Would anyone argue that BJJ wasn't created to function optimally on the ground? Or that modern TKD wasn't created to function optimally at a longer kicking range?


As for LFJ and Joy (Vajramusti), they seem to have found what works well for them within their lineage, as have I ... for the most part, anyway.

----And like I've said, there is nothing wrong with admitting that you are satisfied with how your system handles long range! You can be perfectly content with the idea that you can survive at long range enough to use closing skills to get to close range. But that is not the same thing as having a "long range game" that is the equivalent of what is done in boxing.

---And it seems to me that the people that are having a hard time admitting that their Wing Chun doesn't have a "long range game" just aren't being honest with themselves.

 

[Juany118]

Personally, I see Flying Crane's point that if you really understand the theory of the art, then you can make it work regardless of range.

---And I don't disagree with that! But there is still the fact that some things work better at certain ranges than others! That's just simple common sense. There is still the fact that some martial arts methods were designed to work optimally at one given range. Again that's just simple common sense. Would anyone argue that BJJ wasn't created to function optimally on the ground? Or that modern TKD wasn't created to function optimally at a longer kicking range?


As for LFJ and Joy (Vajramusti), they seem to have found what works well for them within their lineage, as have I ... for the most part, anyway.

----And like I've said, there is nothing wrong with admitting that you are satisfied with how your system handles long range! You can be perfectly content with the idea that you can survive at long range enough to use closing skills to get to close range. But that is not the same thing as having a "long range game" that is the equivalent of what is done in boxing.

---And it seems to me that the people that are having a hard time admitting that their Wing Chun doesn't have a "long range game" just aren't being honest with themselves.

To you last point, is it not a bit pedantic, on both sides? Let me explain.

Martial Arts is the study of how to fight and win that fight regardless of whether it has what you define as a "long range game" or if it has methods that allow you to bridge through that long range effectively to a closer range game.

In both cases that "outside range" is addressed within the respective art. In the first case you find ways to fight "out there" in the other you find ways to get past being "out there." It's simply two different methodologies addressing the same problem in two different ways, which method you pick is up to your preference and strengths.

 

[geezer]

---And it seems to me that the people that are having a hard time admitting that their Wing Chun doesn't have a "long range game" just aren't being honest with themselves.

Ya want honesty, wiseguy? I'll give ya honesty...

Geezer's VT long-range game:

1. Run away.
2. Pick up a rock, stick, or whatever else I can get my hands on and beat the tar outta the guy!
3. Close, and use my short-range game.

Now if you can pull something outta boxing or wherever to come up with a better game, and then post a video ...well, I'm game.

 

[Vajramusti]

Personally, I see Flying Crane's point that if you really understand the theory of the art, then you can make it work regardless of range.

---And I don't disagree with that! But there is still the fact that some things work better at certain ranges than others! That's just simple common sense. There is still the fact that some martial arts methods were designed to work optimally at one given range. Again that's just simple common sense. Would anyone argue that BJJ wasn't created to function optimally on the ground? Or that modern TKD wasn't created to function optimally at a longer kicking range?


As for LFJ and Joy (Vajramusti), they seem to have found what works well for them within their lineage, as have I ... for the most part, anyway.

----And like I've said, there is nothing wrong with admitting that you are satisfied with how your system handles long range! You can be perfectly content with the idea that you can survive at long range enough to use closing skills to get to close range. But that is not the same thing as having a "long range game" that is the equivalent of what is done in boxing.

---And it seems to me that the people that are having a hard time admitting that their Wing Chun doesn't have a "long range game" just aren't being honest with themselves.

When you learn wing chun well- you can work it at any ranges

 

[KPM]

In both cases that "outside range" is addressed within the respective art. In the first case you find ways to fight "out there" in the other you find ways to get past being "out there." It's simply two different methodologies addressing the same problem in two different ways, which method you pick is up to your preference and strengths.

Absolutely! And I have only been pointing out that Boxing has a specific "long range game" that can improve what Wing Chun typically does at long range. Not everyone will want to seek to improve what they do at long range, and that is fine! Nothing wrong with "finding ways to get past being 'out there'"! But to deny that it CAN be improved and to claim that Wing Chun does the same thing that boxing does as far as having a "long range game" is just kind of silly. I don't need a "compass" to see that! And neither should anyone else! Its just common sense!

 

[KPM]

When you learn wing chun well- you can work it at any ranges

Geez, how many times do I need to repeat myself? Sure, Wing Chun can function at multiple ranges (probably not on the ground though, so I wouldn't say "any") but working at a specific range long enough to close the gap to the preferred and optimal range for Wing Chun is NOT the same thing as having a "long range game" that is the equivalent of boxing. Why do so many people seem to be having such a problem understanding this??

And you have a boxing background, so I am surprised that you are not seeing this! Has it been that along ago?

Would you say that Wing Chun can conduct the entire fight from long range the same way that Muhammed Ali was able to conduct the entire fight from long range?

 

[KPM]

Now if you can pull something outta boxing or wherever to come up with a better game, and then post a video ...well, I'm game.

I did that on the other thread. I posted several videos showing some of the "long range game" from boxing.

 

[Flying Crane]

Jazzed up for a cover photo. I don't recall him ever punching like that on the actual video itself. And obviously, it meant something to WSL, or he wouldn't have put it in the title! He could have just titled the video "Wing Chun: The Science of Street Fighting" or something along those lines.

Maybe the title did mean something to him. I don't know, I never discussed it with him. Did you? Do you really think he was trying to convey the idea that wing chun is great at ultra-close range, but sucks as soon as your enemy shifts away by three inches? On its face, that would be a rediculous premise. I suspect the title of the video was a marketing gimmick, plain and simple.

Either way, it still doesn't matter. What it meant to him doesn't need to be what it means to you or to anybody else. You take your training and do with it whatever you figure out that you can do with it. You need to own it for yourself. You don't fall back to whatever limits some prior generation might have imposed on it. Make those decisions for yourself, and sometimes the next generation can become better than the previous, even better than the founders.

Personally, if sifu Wong were here to read these discussions, I think he would be beating his head on the table. I don't believe for a second that he would say wing chun is no good at some arbitrarily defined "long" or "middle" range.

 

[Juany118]

I did that on the other thread. I posted several videos showing some of the "long range game" from boxing.

I could be wrong but I thought his point was to show that boxing can stop him from running or can be better than him picking up a stick and going Kali, Arnis, Eskrima on you . Like me @geezer also studies FMA

 

[Flying Crane]

Geez, how many times do I need to repeat myself? Sure, Wing Chun can function at multiple ranges (probably not on the ground though, so I wouldn't say "any") but working at a specific range long enough to close the gap to the preferred and optimal range for Wing Chun is NOT the same thing as having a "long range game" that is the equivalent of boxing. Why do so many people seem to be having such a problem understanding this??

And you have a boxing background, so I am surprised that you are not seeing this! Has it been that along ago?

Would you say that Wing Chun can conduct the entire fight from long range the same way that Muhammed Ali was able to conduct the entire fight from long range?

I think the real answer here is that you are of course free to decide where your limitations lie in your wing chun, but you need to stop trying to tell everyone else that your limitations are also theirs.

 

[Martial D]

I think the real answer here is that you are of course free to decide where your limitations lie in your wing chun, but you need to stop trying to tell everyone else that your limitations are also theirs.

Yet, is it not important to stay realistic? Some limitations aren't your limitations, or kpms limitations, or my limitations..they are THE limitations. Thinking otherwise is fine if you intend to stick to being sequestered in a cycle of mutual masturbation in some mcdojo, but reality doesn't care about your feelings.

The hard cold fact of the matter is not everything works how you want it to, and much of the so called "martial" arts don't work at all.

 

[KPM]

Do you really think he was trying to convey the idea that wing chun is great at ultra-close range, but sucks as soon as your enemy shifts away by three inches? On its face, that would be a rediculous premise. I suspect the title of the video was a marketing gimmick, plain and simple.

----Sure its ridiculous because you are purposefully making it ridiculous! I think he was trying to convey that Wing Chun is specialized and excels at "in-fighting", hence the title. I said nothing about "sucks as soon as your enemy shifts away." If they wanted a marketing gimmick that could have said "The Science of Street Fighting" which would have been even catchier. But Wing Chun is a close-range system, so the title makes perfect sense! Until you purposefully try to make things sound ridiculous.


Either way, it still doesn't matter. What it meant to him doesn't need to be what it means to you or to anybody else. You take your training and do with it whatever you figure out that you can do with it. You need to own it for yourself. You don't fall back to whatever limits some prior generation might have imposed on it. Make those decisions for yourself, and sometimes the next generation can become better than the previous, even better than the founders.

----This is not a religion. It isn't open to personal interpretation. Wing Chun was designed to work at close-range and is optimized for that range. It can function well enough at other ranges to get to the preferred close range. But it is a system specializing in close-range fighting. That's a fact. It is the "Science of In-Fighting" plain and simple.

Personally, if sifu Wong were here to read these discussions, I think he would be beating his head on the table. I don't believe for a second that he would say wing chun is no good at some arbitrarily defined "long" or "middle" range.

----Personally, I think he would be scratching his head and wondering how the heck anyone that had studied Wing Chun could question the idea that it is a close range or "in-fighting" system.

 

[KPM]

I could be wrong but I thought his point was to show that boxing can stop him from running or can be better than him picking up a stick and going Kali, Arnis, Eskrima on you . Like me @geezer also studies FMA

Sorry. That makes no sense.