What was Wing Chun designed for?

[LFJ]

---Few seem to get it to work in a sparring/free-fighting environment against other styles without alterations. Maybe because that kind of setting is not what it was designed for?

It wasn't designed to work against other styles in fighting? Is it not a martial art?

Designed to not work without alterations makes no sense...

interesting that in all those numerous training clips from WSLVT/PB people we've only seen....what...one clip of WSLVT people facing other styles? And that was specifically Sean's group training for MMA and not standard WSLVT training?

It is each group's right to publicize their training to the extent they choose.
It seems to upset you if you aren't given enough to gawk at without going to train in person..?

What do you mean "not standard WSLVT training"? Their striking method is standard WSLVT.

---Well, given the evidence we do have for WSLVT, and the fact that the evidence to support what you are saying is lacking....

You mean the evidence you have or are willing to look at. You could go visit a school and find out any time.

Why don't you do that if you're this obsessed with the lineage?

 

[Knapf]

There are no leaping or running moves to get you closer?

Somebody asked what having no lang range game involves.I just gave an example

As if Wing Chun is some ball and chain attached to the legs

It is.

If someone is retreating I will let them. If I feel like pursuing them I will walk toward them. If they run away, depending on the circumstances, I will smile and wave goodbye.

Have fun "walking" all over the place towards someone who jabs,retreats and jabs again instead of running away totally.

 

[KPM]

This is funny stuff to me. There are no leaping or running moves to get you closer? I'm imagining some stiff and rigid WC guy using shuffle-step footwork trying to bridge some HUGE gap...like one of those 'athletes' who walk super fast, and meanwhile the opponent keeps taking slow steps backward laughing at the dumb Wing Chun guy. As if Wing Chun is some ball and chain attached to the legs and you have to abandon everything else your body already knows how to do and try and do it the 'Wing Chun Way'. If someone is retreating I will let them. If I feel like pursuing them I will walk toward them. If they run away, depending on the circumstances, I will smile and wave goodbye.

Post #96 on this thread.

 

[Juany118]

So the tools are there (punch and kick).

The tactics are there (hit where the opponent is empty?... where they aren't defending/watching).

All that's missing is the practice bit.

Can anyone suggest some good drills for fighting at distance and without chi sau?

My close quarter kung fu taught me to use short quick steps rather than lunging longer steps, to circle to their blind side as it forces adjustment and use angles in both attack and retreat.

It sounds like we've nearly cracked it.

It goes beyond what you say above though with many Lineages. Can WC punch and Kick? Yep. Thing is it is far more effective in chi sau/trapping ranged because of the straight punch. The straight punch is a two edged sword. The shortest distance between two points is a straight line so it is fast. Thing is since you are using a straight punch it can be easier to defend against unless you can wedge/trap the opponents defense and/or flank. Even if you get to the flank you need to be in that range so you can attempt to control the opponent in order to maintain the flank, other wise it becomes a game of Ring Around the Rosie.

Now some WC lineages have more of a long game, whether it be higher kicks, round punches (even if it's limited to tight hook punches) that allow the practitioner to have less reliance on getting into chi sau/trapping range but for those Lineages that rely more on trapping/standing grappling to create openings only reach maximum effectiveness when they are in that range and you see it in sparring, especially when people are sparring against other Martial Arts. The WC guy all but charges straight in looking to get to that optimal range.

 

[LFJ]

Even if you get to the flank you need to be in that range so you can attempt to control the opponent in order to maintain the flank, other wise it becomes a game of Ring Around the Rosie.

A pocket full of posies!

 

[Parky]

Somebody asked what having no lang range game involves.I just gave an example


It is.


Have fun "walking" all over the place towards someone who jabs,retreats and jabs again instead of running away totally.

So citing your boxing comments, would you say a boxer is using leaping and running 'moves' when he is jabbing-retreating-and jabbing, or are you suggesting we should have leaping and running 'moves' to defend against boxers? See I think boxers step, walk, and run...just like me. I think stepping, walking, and running is all I need, not some special Wing Chun way of moving.

 

[Juany118]

So citing your boxing comments, would you say a boxer is using leaping and running 'moves' when he is jabbing-retreating-and jabbing, or are you suggesting we should have leaping and running 'moves' to defend against boxers? See I think boxers step, walk, and run...just like me. I think stepping, walking, and running is all I need, not some special Wing Chun way of moving.

You don't have to run or leap. A retreating fighter will only move so fast if they are backing away in order to maintain their balance. All you ultimately need to so is either

A. Widen your footwork, which some WC Lineages do indeed do. When you start they teach you to keep your footwork tight but later your footwork HAS to learn how to widen. If it doesn't you will be in a world of hurt when it comes to learning the Baat Jaam Do. You can also use the footwork Rocky Marciano used for his left hook, stepping forward and crossing your lead foot with the trailing foot.

I really don't think footwork is the issue with WC tbh (at least it isn't in TWC) the issue with some Lineages is just that it is very reliant on being in chi sau range period. Sometimes the dynamics of a fight just won't let you stay there.

 

[Phobius]

I believe some people just get so caught up in chi-sau they forget to use their legs.

Footwork requires a lot of practise. Try doing crappy footwork when your opponent has two swords in his hands. I assure you that the sharper those blades become, the more lively your footwork gets.

 

[Flying Crane]

Do people believe they are not able or allowed to move unless it is taught as a specific wing chun technique or method?

Sometimes we just need to move. Most of us began learning how to do this when we were very young...

Methinks sometimes limitations are created artificially.

 

[drop bear]

You don't go to a golf club and start teaching tennis.

You don't go to a basketball practice and start playing soccer.

You don't go to a boxing club and start teaching double legs.

You don't go to a Wing Chun club and start teaching arm bars.

You loose the essence of the system. It's an art, it does what it's designed for. If you want to learn a different sport or different art, go ahead, but don't have shitty wing chun and shitty judo and combine them and think you'll have anything more than ****.

I'm not saying it's a bad thing to learn multiple arts. In fact I think it's a great thing to have a diverse skill set, I have studied half a dozen martial arts myself. I don't mix them, I keep the skills and the training pure, and maintain the integrity of the arts that my teachers have taught me. If you want to learn wing chun, learn wing chun. If you want to learn Shaolin, learn Shaolin. If you want to learn Hong Kuen, learn Hong Kuen. You don't see Floyd Mayweather practicing double legs because boxing "doesn't have them." Boxing is boxing. Wing Chun is wing chun. BJJ is BJJ.

I bet Connor McGregor is practicing boxing though.

The line between martial arts are just human constructed concepts.

Someone just made a rule and said you can't play tennis with a golf club. That is their rule. Not mine.

 

[drop bear]

Do people believe they are not able or allowed to move unless it is taught as a specific wing chun technique or method?

Sometimes we just need to move. Most of us began learning how to do this when we were very young...

Methinks sometimes limitations are created artificially.

Yeah we have confused ideas like it just doesn't work very well with it is not part of the system.

 

[drop bear]

Well, no. 8-9 years should be more than enough to fare well.
It sounded like you had a couple years here and a couple there.

Good Wing Chun is not something easy to come by.

I don't want to piss everyone off and say most get it wrong, but indeed few ever figure out how to get it to work against other styles. Current threads here indicate that pretty well.

What it takes is a good understanding of the strategy and tactics for facing any sort of attacker, and then lots of practice actually facing people from other styles. Most Wing Chun simply doesn't have the strategy, and the practitioners don't face others enough. So, the result is to be expected.

You need to start with a guy who can demonstratively use their system against other styles.

Otherwise the principles don't count.

That is why people turn to boxing or BJJ because you can roll up to a gym and get your butt handed to you. That way you know you have the right guy.

 

[Knapf]

So citing your boxing comments, would you say a boxer is using leaping and running 'moves' when he is jabbing-retreating-and jabbing,

No. But you yourself as a Wing Chunner should adopt long range moves to defeat him quickly if he retreats and not Biu Ma which takes too long.

or are you suggesting we should have leaping and running 'moves' to defend against boxers?

Yes. But running doesn't mean running in marathon style. "Running" towards the enemy in Choy Lee Fat style. Or should I say advancing.

See I think boxers step, walk, and run...just like me. I think stepping, walking, and running is all I need, not some special Wing Chun way of moving.

I thought you were disagreeing with me about running. Why are you saying now that stepping,walking and running is all you need?

 

[Knapf]

You don't have to run or leap. A retreating fighter will only move so fast if they are backing away in order to maintain their balance. All you ultimately need to so is either


I really don't think footwork is the issue with WC tbh (at least it isn't in TWC) the issue with some Lineages is just that it is very reliant on being in chi sau range period. Sometimes the dynamics of a fight just won't let you stay there.

Biu Ma takes too long to achieve the desired results. The boxer will jab and at times not only retreat backwards but to the left and right. You use Biu Ma and before you know it he's already at the right side. Biu Ma again and he's already at the right. You need quick offensive footwork to finish off the boxer.

 

[Knapf]

Do people believe they are not able or allowed to move unless it is taught as a specific wing chun technique or method?

Sometimes we just need to move. Most of us began learning how to do this when we were very young...

Methinks sometimes limitations are created artificially.

Biu Ma takes too long.

 

[Juany118]

Biu Ma takes too long to achieve the desired results. The boxer will jab and at times not only retreat backwards but to the left and right. You use Biu Ma and before you know it he's already at the right side. Biu Ma again and he's already at the right. You need quick offensive footwork to finish off the boxer.

Not all WC is the same however, even those who claim YM Lineage. Yip Chun is different than WSLVT which is different than TWC.

 

[Knapf]

Not all WC is the same however, even those who claim YM Lineage. Yip Chun is different than WSLVT which is different than TWC.

So if one lineage teaches Biu Ma, what does the other lineage teach that is better than Biu Ma?

 

[Juany118]

So if one lineage teaches Biu Ma, what does the other lineage teach that is better than Biu Ma?

That's not actually the point. The point is that every lineage uses similar, if not identical, identifiers to say "foot work" as an example, but in practice they can be different. It also changes as you progress. When one starts learning the Baat Jaam Do you see the change in footwork necessary to address the longer reach of the blade. This can be applied to empty hand, heck many argue it's the point of BJD. I am speaking from the position of studying Grand Master Cheung's Wing Chun though.

Also full disclosure... I have not started with the BJD yet. However GM Cheung gave his Blessing to my school to teach TWC and Inosanto Kali in parallel, so the footwork changes necessary for weapons is taught in my school from the very beginning and applying it to WC, when needed, is basically second nature.

 

[Knapf]

That's not actually the point. The point is that every lineage uses similar, if not identical, identifiers to say "foot work" as an example, but in practice they can be different. .

My original point was that footwork in WC,Biu Ma,for example, was too slow. So if your point was that every lineage uses identical footwork but in practice they can be different,I would like to know how your lineage has better footwork.

 

[Flying Crane]

Biu Ma takes too long.

Are you unable to move outside of what is specifically taught? Seriously, you can't step or walk or run or skip or jump or roll or do a goddam cartwheel if necessary, if it isn't specifically taught in your wing chun? You are unable to do that? How to you walk to the bathroom? How do you run after a bus? How do you jump over a puddle? How do you bend over to pick up a sack of groceries, or kneel down to tie your shoe? If the only way you can move is how you are taught in wing chun, then you live a horribly constructed life.

Sometimes ya gotta just move, if that is what you need to do.