It doesn't seem the infection is that serious. Not that easy to be infected.
From social distance to this over night. I just don't know what could happen like this.
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What is your plan for re-opening?
- Thread starter skribs
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From social distance to this over night. I just don't know what could happen like this.
Headhunter
Senior Master
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Well yes it is serious,.,,seeing as how many people have died from it....bit of a silly comment......those people....well they're just stupid and yes there probably will be a hell of a lot more infected because of it. But it can take up to 2 weeks to fully come onIt doesn't seem the infection is that serious. Not that easy to be infected.
From social distance to this over night. I just don't know what could happen like this.
jobo
Grandmaster
i suppose you have no idea what a packed train or bus is like either ?
Amazon.co.uk : yellow dusters
heres is a '' fact'' i didnt know to 30 seconds ago
Dusters are yellow because it's the colour of the flag hoisted on a ship before coming into port to let those ashore know that the crew were all fit and clean! ...
though i suspect this is nearer the truth
Why are dusters often yellow?
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dvcochran
Grandmaster
Just saw this in the news; mask production in certain countries has stopped because of a chemical found on the masks media that can be inhaled and damage the lungs. Just perfect for more law suits to be filed down the road.
I have wondered the same thing about all of the homemade masks being made out of 'who knows what' kind of material. Some with print and logo's and such on them.
I have wondered the same thing about all of the homemade masks being made out of 'who knows what' kind of material. Some with print and logo's and such on them.
Cool trivia.
Looks like an open weave, so probably not as effective (in a single layer, anyway) as a tighter weave. But it'd still break the air current from breathing and coughing, which should limit the distance the droplets travel. Probably less effective on those smaller particles referred to as "aerosolized".
As for a packed bus or train, I wouldn't get on one these days if I had a choice. I'm pretty sure we can make up a circumstance where a given thing doesn't work well, but that doesn't even begin to suggest that thing isn't effective in general.
Yeah, that's an ufortunate side-effect of the sudden nature of this crisis: lots of things there wasn't enough time to figure out. Some bad stuff is going to happen by accident. Man, I hope that doesn't do long-term damage to anyone.
jobo
Grandmaster
but that your usual thing of personalising a discussion to your specific circumstances
my comments were very UK specific, they are perhaps not applicable to the USA in general or Gerry in particular
to refresh THE uk government are opening up the economy, that is the restrictions on work, and travel are being scaled back considerably
that then opens up the public transport system as being the only viable way lot of people have of getting to work, after previously putting all sort of restrictions and inconveniences in the way to force people out of cars and onto the system system
so people are going to be using the system as they have little option , then because of chronic under investment over decades that system will be over crowded, it was before, it will be again
the governments answer to that logistical problem is to advise people who will be crammed in like sardines to tie bits of cloth round their airway, that at the very best will be totally inadequate at protecting them, if they dont as seems likely actually make matters worse
the fact that you can elect not to use public transport doesnt seem to affect that in anyway ?
Is it perfect? No. Does it help? Yes. When I've been on public transit in large cities (New York, for instance), I've rarely had anyone within 6" of my face. I think that's probably more common in Tokyo, from the videos I've seen of their transit, but less common in Europe, from my experience there.
The masks - per the science I've seen - help. I'm not really sure why you're still arguing tiny points and trying to find a circumstance where they aren't great. Maybe just don't put your face within 6" of someone else's any more than you must.
jobo
Grandmaster
because that is the circumstance that my post was about and no, if they dont work at protecting you they dont work, there is not a nuanced middle ground, where they are better than nothing
crowded commuter train, subways and buss are a world wide issue, not something that is the sole preserve of japan. the tube system in london for instance is packed just as tight at 8 in the morning, if you have a square foot of space your not on a crowded one, ive been on trains to London with less room than that,, there not allowed to pack cattle in that tight, hell ive been on packed busses in LA
why your insisting in attributing your middle class semi rural american experience to the rest of the world im not sure. you may have the option not to, millions dont share that privilege
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Work/not work isn't binary. It's a matter of how effective they are. In that crowded train, even if someone is 6" from your face, everyone else is NOT that close. So a bunch of the masks are doing something useful even in that circumstance. So, yeah, a seatbelt isn't much help if your car catches fire or goes undewater, but....
There's a difference between "crowded" and "faces 6" apart".
I'm not sure where you're getting that from my comments about being on transit in NYC, Chicago, Washington DC, and European cities. I'm going from what I've seen in areas much more crowded than the rural area I call home. I've spent a bit of time in crowded transit.
jobo
Grandmaster
well no its not, if its crowded to the point you cant full expand your lungs, a common even on the London tube, then someones face is only 6 inches away, or considerably less,, unless you some how get every one to face in the same direction in which case its 8 inches away, even if you have a luxurious square foot to stand in, your right in someones breathing zone, at 4, 6 10 inches and you have still got to get off, by pushing sideways through the crowd where its difficult not to touch noses and everyone else square foot reduces accordingly to make room for you
work or not is binary
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You go with that. Those of us who understand statistics will work with reality.
jobo
Grandmaster
you haven't got any stats though have you, ive asked before and you just became evasive and unpleasant
misinterpreting stats, as yuve done several times is one thing, using imaginary stats to support an irrational view is a whole new level
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Hmmm. I'm sorta with Gerry on this one. I don't need to have stats to know that sometimes when I'm caught by surprise with a sudden explosive sneeze or cough, especially when my hands are full and I don't have a chance to cover up, I've blown snot or phlegm all the way across the room, or (equally disgustingly) all over my windshield when driving. And, of course, there's always a mist of droplets left floating in the air. On the other hand, if I were wearing a mask and that happens, at least I'm not going to spray someone standing 6, 8, or even 10 feet away like before!
Now in a super crowded subway or elevator, all bets are off. If, like many urban dwellers, that's an unavoidable part of your life, well it sucks to be you!
...but seriously, if you can't avoid crowded spaces, you just have to take whatever sensible precautions you can think of and ...hope for the best. Might try not bathing, eating a ton of beans and garlic... looking like a psychopathic killer clown ...whatever it takes to keep people from crowding in so close to you.
jobo
Grandmaster
i made a very specific posted dealing with the uk governments strict legal requirement for tieing bits of household cloth round your mouth and nose on crowded commuter transport.Hmmm. I'm sorta with Gerry on this one. I don't need to have stats to know that sometimes when I'm caught by surprise with a sudden explosive sneeze or cough, especially when my hands are full and I don't have a chance to cover up, I've blown snot or phlegm all the way across the room, or (equally disgustingly) all over my windshield when driving. And, of course, there's always a mist of droplets left floating in the air. On the other hand, if I were wearing a mask and that happens, at least I'm not going to spray someone standing 6, 8, or even 10 feet away like before!
Now in a super crowded subway or elevator, all bets are off. If, like many urban dwellers, that's an unavoidable part of your life, well it sucks to be you!
...but seriously, if you can't avoid crowded spaces, you just have to take whatever sensible precautions you can think of and ...hope for the best. Might try not bathing, eating a ton of beans and garlic... looking like a psychopathic killer clown ...whatever it takes to keep people from crowding in so close to you.
they even went as far as telling you not to use proper masks
im totally at a loss why Gerry is defending that ? im totally at a loss how any one could, but of course he isnt, he has just transposed the whole thing to his experiences and holding forth on totally unrelated topics
like american transport, not crowded and better masks, something that is totally in effective in the circumstances is not better than nothing. its exactly the same, ie totally ineffective in the circumstances. the circumstances in this case being very close proximity to other people for what could be a fairly long period of time
in fact in many ways its worse, people who otherwise might wait for the next train, make other arrangements or even walk are going to be lulled into a false sense of security, people who have got access to proper masks have been told not to use them
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The above are excerpted remarks from Jobo's previous post ( with italicized sections added for clarity). They are pretty much spot on IMO.
If it were true that a mask is "totally ineffective" on a train, I'd agree. It's not. It's effective for most folks on there - just not for the 3 whose noses are within 6" of his face (the distance he specified).
Imperfect, but useful. In some circumstances, it might be worth skipping the mask if it's not going to help (and might be worse than nothing), but in most circumstances it's an asset.
jobo
Grandmaster
oh well, you seem to accept bits of rag are useless in close proximity, whilst doubting that the chronically under funded British transport network gets crowded to the point that close proximity is inevitable,
A state of mind you could only have if you have never been unfortunate enough to travel on the London under ground at 8 in the morning, but hell, dont let your lack of personal experiences get in the way of your opinions that the worlds transport networks are like america
as a point of reference, football with spectators is still banned, though football grounds have no greater density and really in all seater stadia considerably less density than the transport network,,,
coz,,, well its to dangerous to have thousands of people in the same place at the same time...
no one has come up with the genius solution of everyone wrapping a duster round their faces as a working solution.
the reason for this disparity is simply one of expediences, they can easily keep public gathering shut down they cant the transport system, so they are operating two different standards of public safety, one because its saves them money, the other because it costs someone else money
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As I've said before, there will be more people outside your immediate proximity than in it, in a crowded area. You're protecting as many as you can by wearing a mask. That you can't protect the 7 people within 6" of your nose doesn't invalidate the protection for the 40 or so others within 12' of you.
jobo
Grandmaster
well yes there will be more people outside MY immediate proximity, than in ,,, by about 70 million,,, that a rather obvious statement,
if they have packed 400 people in to a carriage that could reasonably be expected to carry 50 in comfort, Everyone is in several people breathing zone
IF there is only ONE asymptomatic person in that carriage and IF only three people get infected,, in a few days, those three people are in other and equally crowded carriages and 9 people get infected, then they do it again on the way home and tomorrow and the day after...the arithmetic progression is somewhat obvious.
though clearly not to your Gerry is the centre of the universe perspective, as an individual you can only do what you as an individual can do,,, expectations on government are perhaps different, at the very least they shouldnt lie to us by suggesting that bits of rag give any meaningful measure of protection
if as has happened, im dealing with bio waste and the contractor turned up with handkerchiefs as respiratory protection i would send them home,,, COZ..........
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