What is the report from the UK?

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Invisibleflash, Jul 30, 2019.

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  1. Invisibleflash

    Invisibleflash Yellow Belt

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    I see a lot of the YT self-defense videos coming from England. It figures that hand to hand is important in England since you can't have pepper spray or any weapons.

    How are things going with the knife attacks / violence? Getting better or not?
     
  2. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    knife attacks are generally one set of miscrents knifing another set of miscreants which may sound callous, but if your not involved in their post code( zip code) turf wars then its most likely not going to effect you to much, unless said miscreants are trying to rob you
     
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  3. Rabbitthekitten

    Rabbitthekitten Blue Belt

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    Knife attacks are very low here, they are lower than they were in the 90's, despite the so called "surge".

    I'm 37 I've never seen a knife on the street. I've never been attacked ever. I heard maybe about two people I know ever have been and alcohol was involved. I would quite happy to walk through any bad area in my city alone, unarmed and at night.

    The UK is one of the safest places on the planet. The only violence is between gang members and that compared to many other countries is very low.

    1.20 murders of all kinds per 100,000. Compare that to the USA of 5.30 per 100,000. The UK is not dangerous. Not at all
     
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  4. Rabbitthekitten

    Rabbitthekitten Blue Belt

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    Also I'll add that it's probably because people don't have access to weapons and pepper spray that it's so low.
     
  5. geezer

    geezer Grandmaster

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    I get the weapons part. But I fail to see how not having pepper spray keeps the homicide rate down ....except, if someone did pepper spray you, you might get so ticked-off that you'd want to kill them. Yeah, I guess that makes sense. :)

    Now, I live in a part of the US where anybody can carry pepper spray, or stun guns, as well as knives, swords, handguns, shotguns, and of course semi-auto "assault" style rifles, concealed (if you can!) or openly, with no permit required. ...although actually I'm not sure about nunchuks and expandable batons. Local ordinances may vary so it's probably best to stick with guns. My big brother actually owns a small canon. Can't carry that though. You can drag it around. It's mounted on a carriage. ;)
    [​IMG]


    ...and, so far, I've never felt threatened ...by guns that is. There have been a few big angry guys that wanted to punch me over the years. Now days I watch my mouth and that doesn't happen so much. But you know what IS scary around here? The way people drive. o_O
     
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  6. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    there are sseveral ways of looking at it, peprr sprays are more useful to attackers than they are to victim, same with tazers possession of either will see you charged with a fire arms offence, and a hefty prison sentence, knifes are not punished as severely, so knives are where itst at, if your having an illegal carry, there is talk oon increasing the sentence on knives, but then they don't have enough prison places, and the government won't spend actual money .

    the lack of weapons in every day possession does stop a lot of crimes of passion, and the illegality does restrict how and where people are them some what, if they want to shoot you, they need to go away, get their gun from what ever woodland its hidden in, come back and hope your still there
     
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  7. Invisibleflash

    Invisibleflash Yellow Belt

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    That's is something. The news we get in the USA is London has more knife attacks than NYC and London is the acid attack capitol of the world. Now they don't talk about the rest of England, so don't know what is going on there.

    If it is just localized gang members knifing each other, let them have at it if they don't bother the average person. I would think without any weapons the young girls are prone to rape. Is rape low as well as crime?
     
  8. Rabbitthekitten

    Rabbitthekitten Blue Belt

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    I think they banned acid sales a few years ago so that doesn't really happen so much now.

    Knife crime is mostly gangs and it does get reported a lot but London is the biggest city in Western Europe. It's going to happen. But I don't think the rate is higher than anywhere else. It's just there are 9 million people and some are crazy.

    Rape I could only find figures for Scotland from 2009. 17 per 100,000. Reported that is. The U.S. for 2010 was 27 per 100,000. Again reported. Also with rape laws are different in different jurisdictions. So it's not a direct comparison.
     
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  9. Rat

    Rat Black Belt

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    Last year if that offensive weapon bill went into motion, or this year. I forgot, one of the amendments was banning the delivery of knives to residential addresses and licensing sulfuric acid. (or a list of acids)

    Edit: I believe this is the act that came of the bill: Offensive Weapons Act 2019 I just found it so i haven't skimmed it yet. Offensive Weapons Act 2019 — UK Parliament

    This is the bill i belive also, there may be a 2019 one as well. Offensive Weapons Bill 2018: overarching documents (not a literal link to the bill but you know what i mean)

    But in general most of the violent crime is centered around gangs and in cities. different crime trends in rural areas to city areas.


    the trend is violent crime is going down as far as i recall with minor spikes here and there but if you look at in decades its going down.



    And skirting around political discussion, weapons can be owned just not carried for self defence. unless you happen to view a swagger stick as still in fashion then you have yourself a decent club. :p


    i would interject as they have been cracking down a lot on it, and in comparison with older laws its severely punished.

    Its more so easier to get knives and not defacto unlawful to own or possess them nor are they regulated past a age check rather than it being a lighter charge.
     
  10. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    in comparison with which older laws, possession of a knife won't get you prison time( first offence), in old laws sheep stealing would get you hanged?
     
    Last edited: Jul 30, 2019
  11. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    It's difficult to pin down figures to actual rape because at best it's usually lumped in with all other sexual assault cases - which includes stuff like touching a woman's arm in a suggestive manner.

    While rape is a huge problem for the people targeted (it's not only girls that can be raped) it's not exactly an epidemic for the country.

    Weapons wouldn't reduce it either imo - if "the girls" we're allowed to carry weapons then so would the perpetrators, who would likely carry better weapons and be able to use them better too... It would become a self escalating issue of increased harm.

    Other violent crime is also really quite rare - rare enough that when it does happen it's pretty widely reported in the media.

    I was threatened with a knife in 1994 - I responded to the threat by counter threatening the little chit with my motorbike helmet - he ran off :D

    It made the local paper a few weeks ago that a man was threatened by a "knife wielding criminal" - his method of defence was to swearily shout at the guy, who ran off (and was later arrested).

    One of the things about "knife attacks in London" is that a threat with a knife is now considered an attack, it doesn't actually have to be used.

    While a threat with a weapon has never been legal, it's only recently that it's been considered an attack - so a surge in attacks isn't surprising.

    Similar things have happened with other crimes too, so figures rise for a while and the media gets to sensationalise an increase in crime.

    Last week my wife and 10 year old son went to London for a few days - she reports not feeling threatened at all.
     
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  12. WaterGal

    WaterGal Master of Arts

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    To be fair, if knives are the worst weapons that most criminals in London have access to, then it makes sense that London would have more knife crime than NYC, where criminals also have access to firearms.

    I know where I live (in the US), a lot of the violent crime is drug dealers knifing or beating each other over who gets to sell drugs on the block, like you mention. People see certain stats and go "omg, that neighborhood is so violent", but if you go there it's not really, not for the average person who's not hanging out with gang members.
     
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  13. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Two big factors that are being grossly overlooked.
    1.)Simply by virtue that the US has more people by several factors, looking at the numbers by per 100,000 it not apples to apples. The US is much, much more diverse.
    2.)The US has more immigrants than the UK's entire population. We may even have more illegal aliens than the UK's entire population.
     
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  14. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    In reply to 1 - how else should you look at it?

    Yes, there are more people in the US, but looking "per 100,000" (or maybe "per capita") is the only valid comparison.

    Let's say a town of 100,000 has 1 crime - you can scale that to say a town of 1,000,000 can reasonably be expected to have 10. If the bigger town has 5, you can conclude that it's half as violent (or twice as safe) as the small town - or in another way that each individual is half as likely to be the victim of said crime.

    If we were to just use raw numbers though (100k town 1 crime, 1m town 10 crimes) then the bigger town looks 10 times more violent.

    By raw numbers, the US would look hundreds of times worse.

    As for diversity, almost every country on the planet has a representative of some sort (diplomatic, legal or illegal) in the UK - so unless the stories of visitors from other worlds are true the US can't physically be more diverse (per capita, or by %, or by any other comparative measure).

    As for 2 - there are 65-70 million people in the UK, the only figures I can find say that there are ~50 million immigrants in the US.

    But that's raw numbers again - official stats (again, what I can find quickly) suggest that 14.4% of the US population are immigrants, with the UK lagging way behind with a mere 14.3% - illegals are shown to be around 3% in both places, within a couple of decimals again.

    The figures for illegal immigrants have to be taken with some caution though, because until they're found you don't know they're there...

    Here, the vast majority of illegal immigrants are only guilty of the crimes directly linked with their immigration status - stuff like border crossings, working without a visa, not paying tax - do they roam the streets in packs of marauding pillagers over there?

    Legal immigrants and 'indigenous' people are responsible for a far greater number of real crimes, whichever recording method you choose.
     
  15. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    It's not just access - it's easy access.

    With a little effort I could probably lay my hands on a shotgun or rifle by the end of the day, and a handgun by the weekend - for enough cash. They're around, just not everywhere.

    If I want a knife, I can grab one from the kitchen, or buy one in town. For the purposes of statistics, if stab someone with a spoon it'd likely be recorded as a knife crime...
     
  16. pdg

    pdg Senior Master

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    Oh, and also - possible consequences...

    For many years having an illegal knife was considered a tiny crime, barely worth a police caution with the usual thing being confiscation and being sent on your way.

    Whereas, being caught in possession of a firearm meant a definite night in the cells, most likely a court appearance and in many cases a custodial sentence (whether it was used or not, just possession).

    And the gun possession punishments were ever increasing.

    Even criminals aren't stupid, unless they were carrying with the direct intent to go cause damage right then they realised a knife was the low risk option.

    Why get banged up for just carrying "just in case" a rival gang bro invaded your turf?

    With knife punishments getting ever closer to those for firearms I expect a reduction in 'knife crime' but a surge in some other weapon - clubs/bats and mini crossbows are starting to make a bit of news...

    There's always some sort of weapon if you want one, and legislation on carrying plays catch up constantly.

    One could say the increase in legislation impinges on normal people's ability to carry things - but really it doesn't (yet). The only reason to carry a gun in the UK (excepting hunting, which is accounted for - and we don't have dangerous wild beasts) is to cause distress or damage to another person, whether as an aggressor or "in defence". As an aggressor you deserve to be punished, and for defence, well, there's just not that sort of threat to defend against.

    I'm relatively normal, and if I got caught with a 5" lock knife in my car/pocket while doing nothing suspicious (easily enough to detain an inner city hoodie wannabe ganger) it'd likely just get completely ignored - because 40+ year old guy in the countryside who works outdoors, it's a tool.
     
  17. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    It's difficult to see how pepper spray would raise the murder rate. :D

    (Just poking at you. Seriously, pepper spray is probably not likely to raise violence levels much, but I don't know how we'd manage to get data on that.)
     
  18. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Rape, overall, is not so much a "stranger danger" problem, so weapons probably don't change the incidence much.
     
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  19. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    In general, crime rates (the per-whatever rate, not just the count) goes up as population density increases. So larger cities (overall, not an absolute) tend to have higher rates than smaller cities and rural areas. Of course, other factors confound the heck out of that (economics being perhaps the biggest).

    In general, most illegal immigrants (regardless of country) are too busy trying to avoid notice to get wrapped up in violent crime.
     
  20. dvcochran

    dvcochran Senior Master

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    Since it is not comparing apples to apples and, as you said, is very raw data, I think the per capita comparison has very little substance to it and is an easy way to skew the data to fit one side of an argument. You know, the media's SOP. It is a gross number that has to be used in comparison but is very misleading if it is the only data used.

    I tried to support the immigrant numbers you listed and while I found the same numbers I also found much wider numbers so I do not know what is accurate. I know nothing about immigration in your neck of the woods so I do not know if it is a problem for you society/cultural wise or politically.

    Illegal aliens are a big problem here and contribute heavily in regards to major crimes. The US political system has found a way to make it very easy for a illegal to not just survive but thrive. It is a big, big part of our political opera and opinions vary greatly.

    ****Monitors: Please note the use of the word Political. It was only intended as a descriptive and not to give opinion or push agenda.

    The US unemployment rate has been right at 3% nationally for about 18-24 monthly. With unemployment so low many employers, especially those who hire large levels of unskilled labor force, try to advocate ignoring work status and the fact that they do not pay taxes correctly/fairly and are a very heavy burden in areas like education expense and crime rate.

    As an employer myself, I know that it is certainly harder to find quality help right now. Our 3% labor pool is mostly people who just do not want to work or constantly job hop. When unemployment goes back up the climate in the US will change rapidly.
     

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