What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[Nobody Important]

Didn't say loss of fine motor skills can't be dealt with.

As I said toward the end of my previous post; Even if you are able to train to retain fine motor control, there's simply no time to be feeling arms that are throwing a barrage of punches at you.

Of course you can train to inoculate yourself against stress to an extent (breath control, as you explain, is an important part), but this addresses the loss of fine motor control, which is less important for fist fighting, since we don't need to do anything like flip off a safety (fine) before we can punch someone (gross).

But at high speeds, like I said, there's simply no time to be feeling and interpreting energies regardless of stress levels.

Phobius draws an analogy to BJJ where sensitivity is something practical. But ground fighting is an entirely different situation from fist fighting. In ground grappling you have the luxury of time to be patient, feel, and wait for the opportunity you need to apply your technique. In a standing fist fight, there is no such prolonged chi-sau-esque arm contact.

I can't count the number of people who have come from lineages where the fighting strategy was predicated on such contact and sensitivity and only ever seemed to work for them when they were playing chi-sau with a likeminded classmate. In free fighting, none of that stuff worked anymore because there was no such contact to work from. So, all the muscle memory didn't matter because it needs a "trigger"– as a Phobius said– a trigger that never comes.

I find myself in agreement with this assessment.

 

[Phobius]

With trigger I did not mean triggering an attack. Rather meant trigger in its actual meaning such that each change triggers a new reaction. No matter how small, with the ability to sense that change get being a limitation.

Of course you need other senses such as sight to trigger action and reaction as well. Unless you want your first trigger to be a fist in the head.

Pull a trigger is not what a trigger is about. A trigger is something that has a predefined point when it will cause an action. You have triggers in computer systems. In your engine of your car. At the factory. In the electronic doors of your supermarket. Not only in guns.

Oh forgot to say that hearing is also a good sense.

Oh and saying it does not work is saying it does not work for you. It is easily tested and verified so I have gotten my own opinion which I consider facts to me.

But I do not know if it works for others so it could be that it may not. And you think BJJ senses are working in a slow environment? The little time you have to react to openings. BJJ is relaxed but when everything seems to be moving slowly for you it is very very fast yet relaxed for them. Change in body happens so fast. The slow part is that it does not happen all the time.

EDIT: some boxers do it to, sending out a jab and as soon as they sense resistance they react instantly. Not as refined but effective, then again they don't have sensitivity drills.

EDIT2: you can't train to react on contact. It is the changes you react on. You need forward intent. Also it is once again one of All tools. Not THE tool, just A tool. We spend more focus on reacting to sight and footwork than on sensitivity where I train. But we do train it quite a bit still.

 

[LFJ]

And you think BJJ senses are working in a slow environment? The little time you have to react to openings. BJJ is relaxed but when everything seems to be moving slowly for you it is very very fast yet relaxed for them. Change in body happens so fast. The slow part is that it does not happen all the time.

The key difference is that in BJJ there is constant contact and you are able to use that contact, remain composed in a relatively safe position (although there is a lot going on and you are constantly making adjustments), and feel for the right opportunity to apply your technique. A standing fist fight doesn't happen like that at all.

As to the rest of your views on sensitivity, if you say it works for you, you must be quite special since many longtime teachers couldn't get it to work outside of chi-sau, but I'm not going to argue it with you.

 

[WTchap]

@LFJ

"Phobius draws an analogy to BJJ where sensitivity is something practical. But ground fighting is an entirely different situation from fist fighting. In ground grappling you have the luxury of time to be patient, feel, and wait for the opportunity you need to apply your technique."

I can see where you're coming from, and it's true that ground work is a different game. But I'd add that when a BJJ player is being "patient, feeling and waiting for an opportunity", this is happening while they're under sustained attack. The opponent is always positioning, re-positioning and constantly searching for an arm, or working for a choke, etc., so you're also constantly adjusting to what you feel, in real time, as you try to work in your own offence.

"In a standing fist fight, there is no such prolonged chi-sau-esque arm contact. I can't count the number of people who have come from lineages where the fighting strategy was predicated on such contact and sensitivity and only ever seemed to work for them when they were playing chi-sau with a likeminded classmate."

I largely agree with this. It is a curse of Wing Chun. The prolonged contact, and also the prolonged maintaining of a certain distance, along with both people working with shoulder-facing strategy, make for a good training tool (based on these set parameters), but a serious problem occurs when people expect to be able to apply this outside of those 'ideal' training conditions, conditions that are dependent on two people playing the same game.

"In free fighting, none of that stuff worked anymore because there was no such contact to work from. So, all the muscle memory didn't matter because it needs a "trigger" – as a Phobius said – a trigger that never comes."

I'm a bit 'yes and no' on this. Yes, I agree, for the reasons I stated above; but no, I disagree in the sense that while prolonged contact doesn't exist (until distance closes to, say, a clinch) contact itself is there - but it's fleeting and so it's a 'touch and go' scenario. The problem is when people have trained prolonged contact and then expect to be able to keep that contact under striking conditions.

 

[LFJ]

I can see where you're coming from, and it's true that ground work is a different game. But I'd add that when a BJJ player is being "patient, feeling and waiting for an opportunity", this is happening while they're under sustained attack. The opponent is always positioning, re-positioning and constantly searching for an arm, or working for a choke, etc., so you're also constantly adjusting to what you feel, in real time, as you try to work in your own offence.

Yup. I acknowledge the same in my last post;

"The key difference is that in BJJ there is constant contact and you are able to use that contact, remain composed in a relatively safe position (although there is a lot going on and you are constantly making adjustments), and feel for the right opportunity to apply your technique."

I'm a bit 'yes and no' on this. Yes, I agree, for the reasons I stated above; but no, I disagree in the sense that while prolonged contact doesn't exist (until distance closes to, say, a clinch) contact itself is there - but it's fleeting and so it's a 'touch and go' scenario. The problem is when people have trained prolonged contact and then expect to be able to keep that contact under striking conditions.

Yes, that and the expectance of sensing and interpreting energy as done in chi-sau when contact instead lasts but a split second.

 

[Phobius]

The key difference is that in BJJ there is constant contact and you are able to use that contact, remain composed in a relatively safe position (although there is a lot going on and you are constantly making adjustments), and feel for the right opportunity to apply your technique. A standing fist fight doesn't happen like that at all.

As to the rest of your views on sensitivity, if you say it works for you, you must be quite special since many longtime teachers couldn't get it to work outside of chi-sau, but I'm not going to argue it with you.

Well I do not know about that, it is neither what I have heard nor felt myself. But I got to be honest with you, I would not rely on sensitivity against a good boxer. Fact is it is not something I would ever rely on as only tool, that is just begging to get hit. You need to have a good position, good structure, a clear path. Sensitivity is not gonna help you survive a punch or resist your opponent. It is gonna help you direct your hands in those cases where there is resistance, and I do not mean simply doing pak sau and then magically know what to do next from sensing.

I just train for more than sparring and fighting boxers. This is also why sensitivity is not where I currently train the most, not even close. But if I spend maybe 10% on that area that is something I consider quite a bit.

Just saying it does work in a fighting context, however it is not the same as saying it works for ALL fighting context. As I wrote, it is not the only tool to be used. It is just a tool like many others, one should not rely on a single sense.

Now I must ask you, you consider techniques like bong-sau and jum-sau and so on to be abstract movements to teach you punching only? There is no such movement in fighting? Given that contact and sensing is not part of your style. You have no ability to sense when your structure needs to shift, sort of like shifting a punch to bong-sau, prior to structural collapse?

So you are just strategically planning in advance how to react and hope that you see what happens around you in order to react properly? I seriously doubt you dont yourself actually feel what is happening and reacting to that sense when in close quarter.

EDIT AGAIN: I need to learn to write correctly so less edits. We dont just do chi-sau, nor do I feel chi-sau should be a prolonged game of having contact. It has a goal to find a good attack. If one can't be found that is because you are either not good enough and need to slow down or you are too good.

I think a curse of chi-sau is mastering it. When people master the chi-sau drill and have that as their focus the contact gets prolonged, it gets tougher and tougher to get the upper hand on your opponent and instead it just becomes a game of back and forth. Problem with that is that all beginners want to be like their sifus and start thinking that prolonged contact is the goal. Problem is that prolonged contact is a downside of them facing someone that is as good as them at keeping options locked down.

Well it is just a theory, there are probably many flaws with it and if offensive I am sorry, not intended to be offensive to anyone.

 

[LFJ]

Now I must ask you, you consider techniques like bong-sau and jum-sau and so on to be abstract movements to teach you punching only? There is no such movement in fighting? Given that contact and sensing is not part of your style. You have no ability to sense when your structure needs to shift, sort of like shifting a punch to bong-sau, prior to structural collapse?

So you are just strategically planning in advance how to react and hope that you see what happens around you in order to react properly? I seriously doubt you dont yourself actually feel what is happening and reacting to that sense when in close quarter.

What I sense in a fight is my own structure and position. If either has been compromised, instinctual responses are set to rectify it; be it a helping action to continue an interrupted attack or a remedial action to recover position and again continue attack. I'm not trying to feel my opponent's energy and be reactive. It will already be too late. I don't shift a punch to bong-sau.

 

[SaulGoodman]

Well I do not know about that, it is neither what I have heard nor felt myself. But I got to be honest with you, I would not rely on sensitivity against a good boxer. Fact is it is not something I would ever rely on as only tool, that is just begging to get hit. You need to have a good position, good structure, a clear path. Sensitivity is not gonna help you survive a punch or resist your opponent. It is gonna help you direct your hands in those cases where there is resistance, and I do not mean simply doing pak sau and then magically know what to do next from sensing.

I just train for more than sparring and fighting boxers. This is also why sensitivity is not where I currently train the most, not even close. But if I spend maybe 10% on that area that is something I consider quite a bit.

Just saying it does work in a fighting context, however it is not the same as saying it works for ALL fighting context. As I wrote, it is not the only tool to be used. It is just a tool like many others, one should not rely on a single sense.

Now I must ask you, you consider techniques like bong-sau and jum-sau and so on to be abstract movements to teach you punching only? There is no such movement in fighting? Given that contact and sensing is not part of your style. You have no ability to sense when your structure needs to shift, sort of like shifting a punch to bong-sau, prior to structural collapse?

So you are just strategically planning in advance how to react and hope that you see what happens around you in order to react properly? I seriously doubt you dont yourself actually feel what is happening and reacting to that sense when in close quarter.

EDIT AGAIN: I need to learn to write correctly so less edits. We dont just do chi-sau, nor do I feel chi-sau should be a prolonged game of having contact. It has a goal to find a good attack. If one can't be found that is because you are either not good enough and need to slow down or you are too good.

I think a curse of chi-sau is mastering it. When people master the chi-sau drill and have that as their focus the contact gets prolonged, it gets tougher and tougher to get the upper hand on your opponent and instead it just becomes a game of back and forth. Problem with that is that all beginners want to be like their sifus and start thinking that prolonged contact is the goal. Problem is that prolonged contact is a downside of them facing someone that is as good as them at keeping options locked down.

Well it is just a theory, there are probably many flaws with it and if offensive I am sorry, not intended to be offensive to anyone.

Agree 100%, I've been guilty in the past of training way too much chi Sao. i think this can actually be detrimental to being able to really protect yourself in a real fight. Some even say chi Sao is wing chuns version of sparring! That long luxurious prolonged contact that you get when playing chi Sao is never there be it in real fighting or hard sparring. I tell my students that it's a bit like listening to a radio broadcast, in chi Sao we are getting a good clear signal whereas when we are working with fast,broken contact/timing there is MASSIVE amounts of interference meaning we can no longer hear that program. Going into a real situation expecting to stick and redirect violent intent effortlessly is a ticket to casualty IMO. Never thought I would agree with LFJ on anything but I believe I share his same views on this subject.

 

[Nobody Important]

Reading over some of these views I am quite surprised. It's refreshing to see that there are some reasonable and realistic views concerning Chi Sau coming from WC people. More often than not I hear the same old rhetoric spouting the necessity of Chi Sau's use in boxing, one which I could never agree on.

That being said, I would like to hear some views, for or against the following. If you believe Chi Sau to be conceptual, would it be an exercise more fitting of grappling & Kum Na than boxing. Thank you.

 

[LFJ]

If you believe Chi Sau to be conceptual, would it be an exercise more fitting of grappling & Kum Na than boxing. Thank you.

Depends on what your concept is. For me, what it is developing is the antithesis to grappling. I would say that seeing it more fitting to grappling is taking the prolonged arm contact too literally.

 

[Nobody Important]

Depends on what your concept is. For me, what it is developing is the antithesis to grappling. I would say that seeing it more fitting to grappling is taking the prolonged arm contact too literally.

I understand what you are saying here. Personally I'm thinking less traditional platform based Chi Sau. More focusing on the concepts of leaking, running & binding, not unlike hand fighting or pummeling as in wrestling, as a more realistic & practical approach to Chi Sau application while under duress. More touch & go than actual sticking. Quick redirects in a clinch or guard position to gain positional advantage or lead into holds & locks. Of course this would be opposite & contradictory to what most traditionalists consider Chi Sau, but I believe the underlying concepts of leaking, running & binding would lend themselves nicely in modified form to grappling because of the prolonged contact involved in grappling. In a sense it would still be as you said an antithesis to grappling because it would be more defending in nature as a response to someone trying to wrap you up, especially on the ground. Though for it to work one would have to have a basic knowledge of grappling & transitioning.

 

[SaulGoodman]

I

I understand what you are saying here. Personally I'm thinking less traditional platform based Chi Sau. More focusing on the concepts of leaking, running & binding, not unlike hand fighting or pummeling as in wrestling, as a more realistic & practical approach to Chi Sau application while under duress. More touch & go than actual sticking. Quick redirects in a clinch or guard position to gain positional advantage or lead into holds & locks. Of course this would be opposite & contradictory to what most traditionalists consider Chi Sau, but I believe the underlying concepts of leaking, running & binding would lend themselves nicely in modified form to grappling because of the prolonged contact involved in grappling. In a sense it would still be as you said an antithesis to grappling because it would be more defending in nature as a response to someone trying to wrap you up, especially on the ground. Though for it to work one would have to have a basic knowledge of grappling & transitioning.

I have a wrestling background and teach pummeling/hand fighting as part of my curriculum. If you said to me you can either practice chi Sao OR pummelling/clinch fighting then I would always go for the latter as it has a much more direct application to real fighting IME. Chi Sao is part of wing chun training, I do train it but NOT to the exclusion of other things.

 

[Phobius]

I would like to hear some views, for or against the following. If you believe Chi Sau to be conceptual, would it be an exercise more fitting of grappling & Kum Na than boxing. Thank you.

It depends on how people do chi Sau. You can do it with very little contact and high level of contact. Leaving out which part I think is right to keep post neutral.

I think chi Sau if maintaining contact would be good for grappling but I think more of it being preparing you for grappling. Learning to relax and listening to body when training a grappling art. Not a drill I would use to become a better grappler as there are better drills for that in each of those arts.

Chi sao also learns you to use both arms individually which is never a bad thing.

Once again it comes down to how it is done during practice.

 

[KPM]

Reading over some of these views I am quite surprised. It's refreshing to see that there are some reasonable and realistic views concerning Chi Sau coming from WC people. More often than not I hear the same old rhetoric spouting the necessity of Chi Sau's use in boxing, one which I could never agree on.

.

I see Chi Sau as training for what is only a very brief part of any confrontation with an opponent. It is for the transition point between punching and grappling, what the JKD guys call "trapping range." Wing Chun "specializes" at this range because we do such close-quarters punching and are typically contacting the opponent's arms while doing so....controlling while hitting. But modern fighters often go right past this range! You see guys go from boxing straight to wrestling on a regular basis. For this reason a lot of the JKD guys have dropped Bruce Lee's "Phon Sau" or "trapping hands drills" from their curriculum as well as their version of Chi Sau, or at least train it very infrequently. So Chi Sau is training the "transition zone." It is not about boxing or grappling either one. Unfortunately a lot of Wing Chun people tend to overemphasize this phase of training and neglect other things.

 

[SaulGoodman]

The trouble with "trapping range" is that it gets eaten up in a heartbeat if both protagonists are serious about taking each other out. There are some schools of thought that suggest trapping range is a manufactured range...

 

[geezer]

The trouble with "trapping range" is that it gets eaten up in a heartbeat if both protagonists are serious about taking each other out. There are some schools of thought that suggest trapping range is a manufactured range...

No, this is a manufactured range, and a very nice one too:

http://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/6bb10d480e4db1ca_4-6235/traditional-gas-ranges-and-electric-ranges.jpg

IMO, trapping is something that can just happen as a by-product of good, aggressive VT/WC as you close-in. I've never been a fan of training trapping combinations as an end in themselves like some of the JKD guys do.

Rather than training to trap, I'd recommend training good VT/WC and traps will happen.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

When your arm touch on your opponent's arm, there will be 2 possible outcomes.

Your opponent's arm tries to

1. remain that contact.
2. move away from that contact.

IMO, the WC Chi Shou has trained for the 1st outcome but not enough for the 2nd outcome. How to predict your opponent's arm moving path and take advantage on it can give you a lot of advantage in fighting.

For example, when you throw a hook punch at your opponent's head, 50% of the chance that he will dodge under your hook punch. So when you throw your hook punch, are you ready to react to his under arm dodging?

 

[SaulGoodman]

No, this is a manufactured range, and a very nice one too:

http://st.hzcdn.com/simgs/6bb10d480e4db1ca_4-6235/traditional-gas-ranges-and-electric-ranges.jpg

IMO, trapping is something that can just happen as a by-product of good, aggressive VT/WC as you close-in. I've never been a fan of training trapping combinations as an end in themselves like some of the JKD guys do.

Rather than training to trap, I'd recommend training good VT/WC and traps will happen.

Not sure I agree there, in what arena have you pulled off classical.trapping techniques? Trapping range is gone in the blink of an eye between medium range punching and clinch, that's why you pretty much never see anything resembling hand trapping in the standup phase of mma. The back hand to backhand trapping drills that so many are fond of IS in a manufactured range as far as I'm concerned. Sure trapping can work and I have used it to some degree but I don't believe it's a high percentage thing and certainly don't go looking for it. And thanks for the sarcastic reply, nice.

 

[guy b.]

Personally I'm thinking less traditional platform based Chi Sau. More focusing on the concepts of leaking, running & binding, not unlike hand fighting or pummeling as in wrestling

There is a good reason that hand fighting/grip fighting in grappling doesn't look anything like chi sau- the aims are misaligned/contradictory. Grip fighting is both a grappling drill and directly applicable to grappling competition. Chi sau is a striking drill but is not directly applicable to striking. It is difficult to see what benefit chi sau could bring to grappling that is lacking from actual grappling training?

as a more realistic & practical approach to Chi Sau application while under duress. More touch & go than actual sticking. Quick redirects in a clinch or guard position to gain positional advantage or lead into holds & locks.

I think that it is less realistic and practical to directly apply chi sau to grappling (or striking), than to use it for the purpose for which it was designed.

I think that learning grappling would be more effective than chi sau direct application if you wish to apply locks and holds to a resisting opponent.

 

[guy b.]

IMO, the WC Chi Shou has trained for the 1st outcome

No, this is not what chi sau is for