What if Wing Chun remained a concept...

[Kung Fu Wang]

You are a hand-chaser.

If I can wrap my opponent's leading arm successfully, the clinch is established.

leading arm chase -> leading arm wrap -> clinch

 

[Phobius]

I apply WC concept to meet my need and not the other way around.

My main goal is not trying to punch on my opponent's head but to "lock" on his head and then take him down. Before I do that, I need to feel where his arms are so I can wrap his arms.

feel where my opponent's arms are -> wrap his arms -> apply head lock -> take him down -> start ground game

Is there a reason why you want to take him to the ground? I mean it sure can be the goal if you have a profession where most fights need to end without punches such as working at a hospital.

What training do you have for the ground game itself? WC is not really that optimal on the ground to say the least.

WC concepts are still there saying things about efficiency, so it might be that if you can not punch your most efficient move is a takedown. But if you can hit him and there is nothing stopping you, I think you should hit.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Is there a reason why you want to take him to the ground? I mean it sure can be the goal if you have a profession where most fights need to end without punches such as working at a hospital.

What training do you have for the ground game itself? WC is not really that optimal on the ground to say the least.

WC concepts are still there saying things about efficiency, so it might be that if you can not punch your most efficient move is a takedown. But if you can hit him and there is nothing stopping you, I think you should hit.

If I can take my opponent down and control him, I can ask him, "Can we be friend?" If he says, "Yes!" I can let him go and we will both live happy ever after. If I punch on my opponent's face and knock him down, I either have to go to jail, pay his medical bill, or he will come back with a shotgun and shoot me. IMO, the grappling art can always offer a better solution.

If you can wrap your opponent's leading arm, get a head lock on him, and take him down, you are in a nice "side mount" position already. If you can take advantage on that early start, that will be your advantage.

The WC concept may not be able to help me on my ground game. It can help me to obtain my "clinch". That's good enough for me.

 

[drop bear]

So, you're saying hand-chasing is not wrong or bad if it's during instruction?

I would say it's wrong and bad especially because it's being instructed.

Maybe I would be more understanding if you taught non-hand-chasing methods, but in fighting you sometimes make mistakes. But teaching hand-chasing?!

If I show you instruction that does not involve hand-chasing, you "go away"? What does that mean? You don't think it's possible to teach without chasing hands?

You can chase. Just so long as your hand stays between their hand and your head.

There is clinching elements where you can apply it.

But you can't chase hands in a punching exchange.

But if you chase you have to be wary of your arms leaving your body and becoming weak.

But you can chase with your whole body and create angles. That will help.

Being unorthodox is not always wrong. Because right has not yet been determined yet.

 

[Nobody Important]

If I can take my opponent down and control him, I can ask him, "Can we be friend?" If he says, "Yes!" I can let him go and we will both live happy ever after. If I punch on my opponent's face and knock him down, I either have to go to jail, pay his medical bill, or he will come back with a shotgun and shoot me. IMO, the grappling art can always offer a better solution.

If you can wrap your opponent's leading arm, get a head lock on him, and take him down, you are in a nice "side mount" position already. If you can take advantage on that early start, that will be your advantage.

The WC concept may not be able to help me on my ground game. It can help me to obtain my "clinch". That's good enough for me

-----Personally I like variety. I look at styles like tools, each has a specific purpose. Wrenches, screw drivers, hammers, saws etc., even with this there are specifics. Hacksaws, circular saw, wood saw, phillips head screwdriver, flat head screwdriver, claw hammer, sledge hammer, box wrench, ratchets etc. Though some tools will get a variety of jobs done there all always other possibly better options that will make the task easier and more efficient. It's hard to be a good carpenter/mechanic with a limited tool box, why limit yourself to a Swiss army knife when you have access to a variety of tools?

 

[geezer]

----Personally I like variety. ....Wrenches, screw drivers, hammers, saws etc., even with this there are specifics. Hacksaws, circular saw, wood saw, phillips head screwdriver, flat head screwdriver, claw hammer, sledge hammer, box wrench, ratchets etc. Though some tools will get a variety of jobs done there all always other possibly better options that will make the task easier and more efficient. ...why limit yourself to a Swiss army knife when you have access to a variety of tools?

I was skim reading to catch up when I saw this. Guess I took it literally, ..as ideas for self-defense. Conjured up images of movies like Saw....

 

[drop bear]

Is there a reason why you want to take him to the ground? I mean it sure can be the goal if you have a profession where most fights need to end without punches such as working at a hospital.

What training do you have for the ground game itself? WC is not really that optimal on the ground to say the least.

WC concepts are still there saying things about efficiency, so it might be that if you can not punch your most efficient move is a takedown. But if you can hit him and there is nothing stopping you, I think you should hit.

Do you set people up at all?

It is hard to defend a takedown when you are defending punches. And visa versa.

The theory is you grab a bull by one horn and the other stabs you.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

The theory is you grab a bull by one horn and the other stabs you.

The

- "single leg" and "double legs" will give your opponent 2 free arms.
- "waist surround" and "head lock" will give your opponent 1 free arm.
- "double over hooks" and "double under hooks" will give your opponent no free arm.

To make sure that your opponent's free arm (or arms) won't give you any problem is very important. In order to do that, you have to know "where your opponent's arms are". Not only you have to chase his arm, you have to chase both of his arms.

 

[Juany118]

If I can take my opponent down and control him, I can ask him, "Can we be friend?" If he says, "Yes!" I can let him go and we will both live happy ever after. If I punch on my opponent's face and knock him down, I either have to go to jail, pay his medical bill, or he will come back with a shotgun and shoot me. IMO, the grappling art can always offer a better solution.

If you can wrap your opponent's leading arm, get a head lock on him, and take him down, you are in a nice "side mount" position already. If you can take advantage on that early start, that will be your advantage.

The WC concept may not be able to help me on my ground game. It can help me to obtain my "clinch". That's good enough for me

-----Personally I like variety. I look at styles like tools, each has a specific purpose. Wrenches, screw drivers, hammers, saws etc., even with this there are specifics. Hacksaws, circular saw, wood saw, phillips head screwdriver, flat head screwdriver, claw hammer, sledge hammer, box wrench, ratchets etc. Though some tools will get a variety of jobs done there all always other possibly better options that will make the task easier and more efficient. It's hard to be a good carpenter/mechanic with a limited tool box, why limit yourself to a Swiss army knife when you have access to a variety of tools?

This is why I am glad my school teaches WC and Kali. They compliment each other quite well as @geezer will attest to as well I believe.

 

[Phobius]

Do you set people up at all?

It is hard to defend a takedown when you are defending punches. And visa versa.

The theory is you grab a bull by one horn and the other stabs you.

Huh? I was asking in terms of training. You dont do takedown if you have no clue how to fight on the ground.

I asked why or what training he had that made him want to take them to the ground. Being a pure Wing Chun ground game is not reliable for you.

I mean there is a reason I train GJJ also to some extent.

 

[drop bear]

Huh? I was asking in terms of training. You dont do takedown if you have no clue how to fight on the ground.

I asked why or what training he had that made him want to take them to the ground. Being a pure Wing Chun ground game is not reliable for you.

I mean there is a reason I train GJJ also to some extent.

The problem is that it is not when you are controlling the situation that a lack of situational ability becomes an issue. A boxer can kick all he wants. It is his lack of ability to defend kicks that is the issue.

As far as a ground game goes it does not take anywhere near the skill to pound someone from the top as it does to avoid being pounded. So you would be pretty right to drop a guy crack them in the head and run off if you can get away with it.

It is when you are taken down by the other guy that is the issue. And you don't have to be participating in some sort of grapple to have that happen.

You can very easily be fighting from your comfort zone and get caught.

 

[Juany118]

Huh? I was asking in terms of training. You dont do takedown if you have no clue how to fight on the ground.

I asked why or what training he had that made him want to take them to the ground. Being a pure Wing Chun ground game is not reliable for you.

I mean there is a reason I train GJJ also to some extent.

While the Kali I study has more of a ground game I think you would be surprised how effective the following works. Wing Chun does have Chin Na (though largely limited to wrist locks). If, as you take down the opponent you apply a wrist lock and follow through, and I mean follow through, pain compliance is a powerful tool. GJJ is a great system no doubt but get a person on their belly and control just their wrist and thus elbow (and WC trains and apply adequate force? 99% of suspects will comply due to the principle of pain compliance.

That said, if I wasn't a LEO that would not be my goal. My goal would simply be to end the threat and that would mean "attack" and there, I personally don't see me wanting to invite a ground game. If my opponent went down it would be "ground and pound" until the threat stops.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

You dont do takedown if you have no clue how to fight on the ground.

If you smash your opponent's head into the hard ground, the fight can end right there.

 

[Phobius]

It is fine to smash someone head first into the ground. Problem is if they know more about ground than you, their head wont go first. Your body might follow them down.

If you have the ability to punch you should not go into clinch unless you are unable by your profession or other reasons to punch the person facing you.

Also if someone lands well enough on the ground, and you are assuming they wont. It is a big risk you wont feel that way for long.

In addition, taking someone to the ground and then punching them or kicking them. Well you no longer have the ability to claim self defense at least not in my country. So I do not object to taking people on the ground, on the contruary. I am just saying "Are you training something other than WC for groundwork? Reason I am asking is because WC might not really be best suited for ground game or even doing takedowns."

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

"Are you training something other than WC for groundwork?

The WC is only one of my cross training systems. I'm not a ground game expert, but I have trained some. The side mount is my favor.

In addition, taking someone to the ground and then punching them or kicking them. Well you no longer have the ability to claim self defense at least not in my country.

I got a fight with a soldier in Shanyang northern train station in China. 3 polices came. I told them, the other guy cut in line to buy train ticket. We got into argument and "tangled our bodies together". We both lose balance and fell down. I did not throw any punch at him. Those Chinese cops let me go. If I punched that guy on the face that day, I could be in jail somewhere in China.