What happens

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by terryl965, Jun 28, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. MJS

    MJS Administrator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2003
    Messages:
    30,187
    Likes Received:
    427
    Trophy Points:
    208
    Location:
    Cromwell,CT
    I'd have to take things into consideration. Its really a tough situation. You could give up your wallet, car and cell phone and the guy will just take off, leaving you unharmed. You could give him those items and he could still shoot or stab you. Other things to take into consideration: your location, time of day, number of assailants, weapons, family or friends that may be with you.

    I'd have to go with my gut feeling at the time.

    Mike
     
  2. bobster_ice

    bobster_ice Black Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 1, 2005
    Messages:
    594
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Northern Ireland
    You have a good point there, in fact why would anyone make a vow to never fight again?
     
  3. painstain

    painstain Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 17, 2006
    Messages:
    107
    Likes Received:
    4
    Trophy Points:
    18
    martial arts or no martial arts you shouldn't allow yourself to be bullied. it doesn't mean fight, it just means beat him at their own game. make em think you'll take everything they have after you pounce on their face a little bit. i don't know i differ from many martial artists on subject like this. the way i see it, if you do nothing then your partly responsible for that persons next victim.

    with respect,
    painstain
     
  4. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    You act like you are informing me of this. Again, the millions of people that use the legal system with success, both criminal and non, don't make the papers as often as these cases. Before you go down this path, know that, regardless of how many cases you come up with, there are probably ten times, no, one hundred times the number of cases involving criminals that were caught, prosecuted, convicted, and sentenced, who were total POS.

    The system has it's flaws; pointing to the flaws as evidence in support of vigilantism is silly, and terrible advise. Though much of our criminal system is not preemptive, things like restraining orders establish a history, so that if you have to defend yourself, many of the concerns you raise would be non-issues.

    You obviously are convinced that law enforcement and the legal system are horrible monsters, that cater to the rich and forsake the civil liberties of the poor and uneducated. I'm sure you're not the only one; in fact, I would wager that many people believe as you do. Again, I have a lot of real-life experience with the legal system and watching it work for the better of the community. Thus, I do not share your pessimistic assessment.
     
  5. Brad Dunne

    Brad Dunne Brown Belt

    Joined:
    Feb 6, 2005
    Messages:
    472
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    18
    I will just offer an old saying (from time in LE circles), that should suffice in the disagreement on our legal system. The saying goes, " A conservative is a liberal that's been mugged"........
     
  6. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    As far as I am concerned, this thread isn't about the effectiveness of our legal system, it's about whether or not one should take the law into their own hands when someone is bullying them. If you are being intimidated and or threatened by someone and you choose not to go to the authorities, but to take the law into your own hands, you don't get to whine about LEOs questioning you as to whether or not you were the one that started it.

    Also, I hereby deem that saying completely ambiguous, because the terms"conservative" and "liberal" no loger have any meaning. :D
     
  7. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Like you said it has flaws, thus it is flawed. The beautiful thing about flaws is they show where you can improve things. Now in Law Enforcement there is this thing called a pattern of behavior, if I have commited a violent offense before then do it again it shows habitual offense. But that tactic same thing can be exploited against you as well, if the lawyer defending me is crafty enough.

    Vigilante-ism is a bad thing, but thats the stuff where I go looking for trouble to "fix." Self preservation in the street comes down to do you want to bite off more then you can chew. The reality is if I don't walk awya from a fight I am guilty of being a party to the fight and not a victem of assault, if I send him to jail and he gets out, I may or may not become a target again. Sorry proven fact, look at any of the experts in this for self defense and LEO...

    The Questions as a Police Officer I will asking...
    1- Why where you in a potentualy dangerous place in the first place?
    2- Why didn't you hand over your wallet, car keys, dog etc? (Note: This does not pretain the a human life, ie the girl friend, boy friend, wife, kids etc)
    3- Why didn't you leave?
    *Oh you didn't think you could, why was that?
    **Did you try?
    ***Why didn't you try?
    4-What Happened (both sides of the story)? (Note: Do not mention MA training as this can be used as a sign (pattern of behavior) of violent history.)
    5-Burden of proof, what do you have?

    The three things to bear in mind is that (a) an arresting officer isn't gonna know what happened or what is going on until after the initial few minutes. (b) You ability to control yourself will carry over as your initial mental stability. (c) Your word alone, against the words of someone else doesn't prove much...
     
  8. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Are you a police officer?
     
  9. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Not to mention that your LEO questions are so completely off what I was trained to ask. You had bad experiences, cry me a river; I have no delusions about LEOs and the justice system. I still place faith in it as an institution of justice, to be used by the people for the greater good of the community. Your little tangents about the flaws of the system fail to mask your original allusion to the notion that one should neither rely, nor bother with including law enforcement if somone is bothering you, threatening you, attempting to harm you, or is/has harmed you.

    If you ask for my wallet and I refuse, and you try to grab it and miss, that's assault; if you attempt to grab it and slightly brush up against my arm, that's battery. I am thereby allowed to defend myself, as it is reasonble to conclude that if I do not give you my wallet you will harm me. I am within the scope of my authority, as a citizen, to use reasonable force to defend myself. I could place said person under citizen arrest and detain the person until the authorities arrive, if I so chose. From there, give my statement, and go home. Rarely is it more complicated than that.
     
  10. Aikikitty

    Aikikitty Master Black Belt

    Joined:
    Apr 22, 2002
    Messages:
    1,151
    Likes Received:
    25
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Louisiana
    I'm thinking from an Aikido standpoint (or at least, "my" Aikido view), since that's what I do.

    "I swear, Officer, one minute he was threatening me, the next he just fell down!" :D

    But seriously, I don't really count Aikido as "fighting" especially if said thug is going to attack me first. But I suppose it would depend on the situation--if someone was with me, location, etc. If it wasn't just a random guy, but a guy who repeatedly would seek me out to take things from me, then I would enlist backup from my guys at the dojo who I know would do everything they could to help me in a difficult situation.

    Robyn :asian:
     
  11. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    1) Have you seen a real bad ***? Not the mouth running wonna be tough guys but the men, and yes even women, with the mindset of rapid wolverine?

    Remember the question was confronted with a "real bad *** from bad *** land?" Real bad asses are usually dead or in jail. A real bad *** will stab first and ask for your wallet later. I agree if someone is hassling you go to the police, BUT GET AS MUCH PROOF AS POSSIBLE before hand.

    LMAO!!!:lfao:

    How many times you been assaulted?

    If you call the police and say this guy robbed me, and I get rid of your wallet, but keep your money. And the LEOs show up at my door where I have 3 wittnesses saying I was there drinking with them all night and you came down starting trouble because your a big bad Muay Thai guy.

    What can they do? What proof do they Have?

    Better yet lets say I walk swipe your wallet, you turn around pop me in the face and wrap me into a pretzle and call the police. When they get there I have a broken nose and you don't have a scrape. Guess who can prove assault?

    You seem to forget two aspets of our court system (a) the LEOs have to be Objective and (b) the "bad guy" has rights to, rights that they are well skilled at spin doctoring. Two professional criminal; career criminals, especially violent criminals are very good liars.

    And like I SAID earlier, I am an MP (Mlitary Police) in a reserve unit, I work with State, County, and City Police from three states within my unit, I also have a few CO (Corrections Officers) and Fedral Mashals in there as well I well aqainted with the legal system, Federal/Military and Civilian.

    I view the legal system the same way I view the Martial Arts, its never an aboslute, it has flaws and that means it is flawed. Flawed means that it should viewed without the idea of abolutes. Any invention of mankind like all of society will fail, every society on this world every system of law and control has broken down at some point. The only law thats abolute and infalible is the law of gravety...
     
  12. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Working as a bouncer for years, two of which I ran a door and a four-man crew, I have been in **** storms the average person probably cannot comprehend. I have cuffed and stuffed several people into police cruisers myself. I have never had anyone question it.

    I could sit here and trade stories with you, which obviously is getting us nowhere; I still think your assesment is asinine. It's too bad someone who is an MP has the perspective you do. If you want me to pick apart your happy-little scenarios and tell you why they are inapplicable, I will. Just let me know.

    The real tragedy, here, I believe, is your sexual assault on English composition. ;)
     
  13. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Also, don't attempt to be a philosopher; just one more thing you are terrible at.
     
  14. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    So now your down to insults lol ;) Seriously I've been a bouncer in New York at club called Inferno, being attacked on the street and bouncing are completely different. First off as a bouncer, you are in position of control, and wittnesses. Being jumped by four guys in parking lot, alone is way different.

    Please give some innane beliefs as why your an expert, better yet quote a self-defense expert. The legal system works, but not all the time and a criminal will stack the deck against you in everyway possible. If they have experience with the system they will use. My view of the legal system is backed up by real world expereince and it you wonna talk about **** storms, join the Army and go to Iraq...
     
  15. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Well, surely the foray into ad hominem assaults was mutual. It is not a logical fallacy if it is not presented in lieu of an argument; thus, pointing to it has no bearing on credibility.

    I can't even make out the request in the second part of that statement.

    Your problem is you give the criminal too much credit, and not enough to LE. If you want to talk about **** storms, double major in political science and psychology (15 unit minimum), while working 30 hours and doing, now, 6 days of MA. **** storms come in all shapes and sizes; it is futile to compare a tornado to a hurricane, to a tsunami, to an earthquake.

    You still have yet to offer something convincing, in regards to why the justice system should not be relied upon, anomalies aside.
     
  16. Jonathan Randall

    Jonathan Randall Senior Master

    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2005
    Messages:
    4,981
    Likes Received:
    31
    Trophy Points:
    158
    Mod. Note.
    Please, keep the conversation on topic..

    -Jonathan Randall
    -MT Moderator-
     
  17. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Will do. :D
     
  18. AdrenalineJunky

    AdrenalineJunky Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 15, 2004
    Messages:
    513
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    This statement lacks reason. We should not use the justice system and allow the criminals to do what they do, because they will just get worse if we do something? Or go on the offensive--not the defensive--and run the risk of prison, ourselves? Prison is not about rehabilitation, as much as it is about deterrence.

    Baddie wants everything you've got, the most practical, reliable and effective method of dealing with that is to toss them your goods and utilize your run-fu and cell-phone-do skills, while making sure your friends and family get out unharmed.

    Case closed, end of discussion. It's friggin' bed-time.
     
  19. Gman

    Gman White Belt

    Joined:
    Jun 9, 2006
    Messages:
    6
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    1
    Hmm, isn't there an old adage that goes something like:
    "I'd rather be judged by twelve, than carried by six."?
     
  20. Dark

    Dark Purple Belt

    Joined:
    May 6, 2006
    Messages:
    325
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    One, I never said don't use the legal system, I said don't put your faith in it... Two, your **** storm example it is joke, you gave the example of almost every college kid in America. Your **** storm is life, get a grip you won't get a freaking cookie for applying yourself. Three, the are neighberhoods in America where armed police won't go. They won't go there with a small tactical unit as back up. Wheres your legal system there? I am not just talking about L.A and N.Y. but places in north carolina, texas, virginia almost every town or city has one or two of these places.

    My soultion to 99.9999999% of these what if senarios is why are you putting yourself in this position to begin with.

    I'm going to tick off allot of ladies here but, if you flaunt and tease someone and think its ok because I have rights and feelings, then your stupid. Any sexually suggestive act can be considered sexual harassment and that exactly where you land yourself. Worst yet carrying on in such a fashion in the wrong enviroment will get you seriously hurt, and yes it will be your fault...

    Not completely your fault, there is not fault to the victim in society, but your own actions had a part in the events. Its kinda like saying just because I'm in the ghetto crack house its someone else fault I was shot in a drive by. The reality is my choice to enter an obvious danger zone, was my choice that lead up to me being shot, i.e. avoid bad *** land from the initial question. Also known as stupid is it own reward...

    The second part to that question you what was to give some reasons why my senarios where wrong? I find it strange that you go from the "legal system will protect for beating the crap out of you in self defense" to, "Why should fight back and take the chance of going to jail" in your own statements.

    The fact is a real bad ***, will kill you... They won't try to threaten you, they will walk up and hit, stab, shoot or blungeon you to death and take your wallet.

    Getting back on topic to the thread and making my point at the same time ;). There are four types of engagements, a play fight, a real fight, a street fight and a criminal encounter.

    A Play Fight: Is any non-serious combative exercise, such as judo matches, wrestling matches (greeko-Roman or Back Yard), Boxing and even slap boxing. The goal here is to win, not injure or kill the other person.

    A fight: Any serious engagement between two people or more resulting from improper behavior, slighted honor, or procieved violation of personal property and/or space.

    A streetfight: Basically Adult Bullying, Any conflict insigated or directed against a person or persons to establish dominance or preceived social dominance through fear, initidation and violence. Basicly gang type behavior.

    Like the old Itlian saying goes "If a man says he is in the mophia, he isn't..." If I have to tell you how big and bad I am, then I'm not. REAL BAD ASSES WILL BEAT YOU TO DEATH, NOT TALK YOU TO DEATH!!!

    A criminal encounter: Basically a rape (75% precent of the time sexual assault comes from someone the vistem knows), a mugging, etc. The objective is always personal gain, with little to know thought of the victim or victims. Once the goal is achieved, the encounter usually ends. The one exception to this is murder.

    There are three simple outcomes from the "bad ***" in the senario. (a) you give what they want and they want more. I mean why should leave you alone, your easy money (b) you give in and they go away, not likely unless your one vaction (c) You reist and in such away that it makes a point. In a system where everyone has rights, even the criminals, you need real proof. Which is exactly my point, your word alone won't prove much.

    End of arguement...123
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page