What Good are Forms?

[skribs]

As for some things being offered early and taught for use later, that's a valid approach for things the beginner isn't expected to be able to use, but benefit from a long exposure time. You learn parts of them early, develop some good muscle habits, and learn to put them to use once the basic movement is working. In fact, this exists nearly everywhere, but doesn't look the same way. There are always movements where the instructor says, "So, you're going to start this by doing that thing you've been doing for a long time. Except now, instead of X, you're going to do Y." That's essentially the same thing, except there was another use placed on the movement earlier.

This is a very salient point I wanted to highlight.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Karate is kata.

 

[skribs]

Karate is kata.

Care to elaborate?

 

[Buka]

Karate is kata.

Some Karate yes, some Karate no.

American Karate is Kumite.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Care to elaborate?

Not especially.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Care to elaborate?

Sorry, double post for some reason.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

One day I gave a CMA form demo on a local TV station. The news report then said to the camera, "Kung Fu is like dancing." After that day, I no longer spent training time on my CMA forms. I then realized that I could spend my training time in a lot of different areas and get more result out of it.

 

[skribs]

One day I gave a CMA form demo on a local TV station. The news report then said to the camera, "Kung Fu is like dancing." After that day, I no longer spent training time on my CMA forms.

Why did you let someone else's opinion dictate your training strategy? Especially the opinion of a reporter?

Not especially.

Then what was the point of even saying that?

 

[JowGaWolf]

One day I gave a CMA form demo on a local TV station. The news report then said to the camera, "Kung Fu is like dancing." After that day, I no longer spent training time on my CMA forms. I then realized that I could spend my training time in a lot of different areas and get more result out of it.

Sometimes you just have to ignore people like that.

 

[Martial D]

Sometimes you just have to ignore people like that.

And other times, one can make revelations, or have 'a ha' moments, based on unlikely sources.

 

[dvcochran]

Incorrect.

Parsley is part of the meal.

It helps with digestion, reduces gas and bloating, reduce water retention, and freshens your breath. It is intended to be ate at the end of the meal.

So just because someone might not understand something's purpose that does not mean its purpose does not exist.

Well, I just learned something about parsley. Thanks Mr. Jones.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Then what was the point of even saying that?

I was stating an opinion. I wasn't trying to convince anyone. I've been down that road before. Karate is kata, kata is karate. They are inseparable. In my opinion. You may someday come to that realization yourself. Or not.

 

[skribs]

I was stating an opinion. I wasn't trying to convince anyone. I've been down that road before. Karate is kata, kata is karate. They are inseparable. In my opinion. You may someday come to that realization yourself. Or not.

I'm not asking for you to justify it. I'm asking for you to explain what you mean. I don't even understand what you're trying to say by saying that.

Considering I don't train Karate, and probably never will*, I probably will never come to any realization by myself about it.

*Nothing against Karate, it's just very similar to TKD, which I already train, and if I cross-train it will be something else.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

I was stating an opinion. I wasn't trying to convince anyone. I've been down that road before. Karate is kata, kata is karate. They are inseparable. In my opinion. You may someday come to that realization yourself. Or not.

Okay, but if someone doesn't understand what you mean, why not help them understand the statement?

Frankly, I don't think any art is inseparable from its forms. There are those who disagree with my view (you'd be among them, of course). I just don't think there's anything that is taught via forms that can't be taught via something else. I rather like forms, but don't consider them irreplaceable. I think Shorin-ryu (to grab a style more or less at random) can remain Shorin-ryu without the kata, so long as the same approach to the techniques exists.

 

[Headhunter]

One day I gave a CMA form demo on a local TV station. The news report then said to the camera, "Kung Fu is like dancing." After that day, I no longer spent training time on my CMA forms. I then realized that I could spend my training time in a lot of different areas and get more result out of it.

Sooo you based your training on some reporters quote?

 

[Mitlov]

Okay, but if someone doesn't understand what you mean, why not help them understand the statement?

Frankly, I don't think any art is inseparable from its forms. There are those who disagree with my view (you'd be among them, of course). I just don't think there's anything that is taught via forms that can't be taught via something else. I rather like forms, but don't consider them irreplaceable. I think Shorin-ryu (to grab a style more or less at random) can remain Shorin-ryu without the kata, so long as the same approach to the techniques exists.

Personally, I see karate as a combination of kihon, kata, and kumite, and I have trouble seeing it as karate training without all three bring present. You could train to strike like Lyoto Machida without doing kata, sure, but in my mind I wouldn't call that fight training "training in Shotokan karate."

Likewise, I also struggle with the assertion that "karate is kata" because I think it throws kumite (and kihon) by the wayside. If you just did Shotokan's forms in a park like non-combative Tai Chi groups, is that still really Shotokan karate? To me, I'm not sure it is.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Personally, I see karate as a combination of kihon, kata, and kumite, and I have trouble seeing it as karate training without all three bring present. You could train to strike like Lyoto Machida without doing kata, sure, but in my mind I wouldn't call that fight training "training in Shotokan karate."

Some of that comes down to how we define the style. To me, the style is entirely in the end result, not in the training approach. So, if someone can teach the Shotokan movement and strikes without the kata, I'd still consider it Shotokan. I'm okay with the view that without the kata it's an offshoot of Shotokan, though. For comparison, I've changed enough of the Classical forms in NGA (and added kata) that some would say I teach an offshoot of NGA. While I don't say that (I still see it as NGA), I don't have any issue with someone saying it's an offshoot. It's just semantics.

 

[skribs]

Some of that comes down to how we define the style. To me, the style is entirely in the end result, not in the training approach. So, if someone can teach the Shotokan movement and strikes without the kata, I'd still consider it Shotokan. I'm okay with the view that without the kata it's an offshoot of Shotokan, though. For comparison, I've changed enough of the Classical forms in NGA (and added kata) that some would say I teach an offshoot of NGA. While I don't say that (I still see it as NGA), I don't have any issue with someone saying it's an offshoot. It's just semantics.

To me, it's a mix of both. How you train, how new students gain knowledge, it's all part of the style.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Why did you let someone else's opinion dictate your training strategy? Especially the opinion of a reporter?

Sooo you based your training on some reporters quote?

Because I did agree with what that reporter had said.

What's the difference between the following 3 training options?

Option 1: 100% solo form training.
Option 2: 50% solo form training and 50% partner drill training.
Option 3: 100% partner drill training.

To train a good fighter, IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

Example of solo form training:

Example of partner drill training.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Because I did agree with what that reporter had said.

What's the difference between the following 3 training options?

Option 1: 100% solo form training.
Option 2: 50% solo form training and 50% partner drill training.
Option 3: 100% partner drill training.

To train a good fighter, IMO, 3 > 2 > 1

Example of solo form training:

Example of partner drill training.

That's pretty binary. If we make a category that forms fit in (that's not only forms), say "solo drills", I think it's easy to make an argument that a % of time spent in solo drills is a beneficial component. That would include heavy bag, shadow boxing, speed bag, forms, line drills, etc.