What Good are Forms?

[pdg]

How old were you when you trained tkd for 1-3 years?

Well, middle of last year there was this thread, about different punches.

@Rat said he'd studied TKD, so I said:

So, for how long did you do TKD?

And what was the reply?

I think i have around 10-50 hours in one style and 3 in another. I dont keep a track record, but i am still a beginner in it and its made harder by me originally doing it twice a week to doing it once, month wise i think it was closer to a year. Not all at once either, i had periods of leave during this.

So, 1 to 2 years, maybe 3?

Okie dokie.

 

[JowGaWolf]

It was taught as part of the form in the style i went to though as a counter kick action.

Unfortunately there are a lot of schools that teach this as an application. For me personally I wouldn't use a knife hand against a kick or foot. Shin,leg, and ankle is going to beat-beat up my hand every time. I like to use my knife hand on things that don't move so much. This make more sense to me for knife hands.

This downward strike using the knife hand is very risky as it's shown. There is a high probability that the knife hand is going to strike the top of the shin like a chop and the person will end up damaging their hand. I'm not sure why people teach it like that. Their is a way to strike the side of a kick with the hand but this isn't it.

 

[pdg]

Oh, and then:

Im not any belt, school didnt hand out white belts and i didnt grade when i went. I have my reservations about doing that if i did/do go back anyway.

Reservations about doing what, grading?

If you don't, then you're stuck on white belt material...

So yeah, 1-3 years training - either he lied then or he's lying now (or is counting 2.5 years sitting on the sofa between lessons as training).

Passing judgement on stuff used as introductory basics when he's not got past the introduction and complaining he's not been shown enough in his TEN WHOLE HOURS (possibly, maybe less).

An utter Walt of the highest level.

 

[pdg]

Let this be a lesson.

Stuff you say on the internet stays on the internet (even if you delete it, there are ways of finding it for those with an inkling).

There will always be some complete barsteward ready and waiting to quote you.

 

[JowGaWolf]

if someones kicked in your door, you are probably going to want to meet them with force 9/10 times rather than try to talk them out of not doing what ever they were planning on doing after they kicked your door in.

This depends on where I am in my house and the advantage that the person has over me after kicking my door down. If I'm caught in a bad situation with a gun pointed at me or my family then I'm not going to try to rush the guy. I'm going to use other methods even if it's to de-escalate the situation just enough to give me an open line of attack with minimum injury. I'm more likely to attack back if I have the upper hand. The reason I say this is because kicking down doors sounds like a home invasion scenario.

Here's a couple of examples:
Closing the door was the better choice. Not even sure if it was locked. But by closing it, it presents some uncertainty. Does the home owner have a gun and is waiting for me to open the door. It would have been a different outcome had the home owner tried to attack or if the home owner tried to run without closing the door.

Here's another situation that anyone would be screwed with trying to fight back. That person is already in a bad situation because the criminals are in the house. No need to make it worst.

So much for "Fighting Back" We see how well that worked out.

Sometimes all you need is to create some uncertainty in an attacker and use that as part of the de-escalation skill set. 1st the lady says she's calling 911. Excellent, because it adds some difficulty to what the criminal wants to do. Try to give them something else to worry about. The second part was her screaming. Now she's on the phone with 911, Screaming so people can hear her, which in this case her dogs heard her. Had she tried to fight back it would have been a different story, probably one where she gets shot.

I don't know about anyone else here, but for me personally. I'll only fight a physical fight that I can win without great injury and only if I really have to, such as self preservation. Like everything else de-escalation is a timing thing. And it's necessary to know when to do it and when not to do it. I think it's important to understand that de-escalation isn't always about convincing someone not to attack. In all of my conflicts I always tried to increase the aggressors level of uncertainty that things aren't going to turn out how he expected. I made them calculate if attacking me was worth the effort or risk. The longer I could pause the attack the better, because the moment I get a clean opening, I just may take it. But I didn't let them know that.

 

[Headhunter]

Oh, and then:







So yeah, 1-3 years training - either he lied then or he's lying now (or is counting 2.5 years sitting on the sofa between lessons as training).

Passing judgement on stuff used as introductory basics when he's not got past the introduction and complaining he's not been shown enough in his TEN WHOLE HOURS (possibly, maybe less).

An utter Walt of the highest level.

Yeah I see lots of far fetched explanations and lots of excuses.

 

[Headhunter]

How old were you when you trained tkd for 1-3 years? Reason i ask is, like i said in another thread recently, theres a difference between training at 4-7 years old vs 10-12 vs 15-18 vs. 20s vs. Above.

And the amount of detail a 4 year old is taught is different than a 15 year old, since at 4 you're still learning basic motor skills.

Plus he said he trained on and off. So he didn't even train 1-3 years consistently he probably once every few weeks for about 2 years or something like that

 

[pdg]

Yeah I see lots of far fetched explanations and lots of excuses. Anyone who takes that long to talk about their martial art training obviously is self conscious about it

I don't believe it's a case of being self conscious about it personally.

I think it's more a case of blurring the lines between reality and fantasy.

In another thread (which I'll happily find) he goes into detail about his favourite calibre of handgun and which he would choose.

I know roughly where he lives and know that he has (and has had) roughly zero exposure to any sort of handgun so this 'knowledge' can only come from the telly.

 

[Headhunter]

I never understand the point of lying over martial arts experience

 

[Headhunter]

I don't believe it's a case of being self conscious about it personally.

I think it's more a case of blurring the lines between reality and fantasy.

In another thread (which I'll happily find) he goes into detail about his favourite calibre of handgun and which he would choose.

I know roughly where he lives and know that he has (and has had) roughly zero exposure to any sort of handgun so this 'knowledge' can only come from the telly.

I think the fact he has to lie means his confidence is very low in himself. I don't go around saying about guns because I know absolutely 0 about guns never even held a real one but I'm happy to admit that and not pretend I know more than I do

 

[pdg]

I think the fact he has to lie means his confidence is very low in himself. I don't go around saying about guns because I know absolutely 0 about guns never even held a real one but I'm happy to admit that and not pretend I know more than I do

That's the thing, because you're telling the truth you don't have to keep track of what you've said

I've said stuff on here before that I now disagree with - opinions can change.

What can't change, without training more, is how long you've trained...

 

[skribs]

I disagree with just about every sentence in this, and dont have the energy to explain why.

Please do, for the rest of us.

 

[skribs]

I don't believe it's a case of being self conscious about it personally.

I think it's more a case of blurring the lines between reality and fantasy.

In another thread (which I'll happily find) he goes into detail about his favourite calibre of handgun and which he would choose.

I know roughly where he lives and know that he has (and has had) roughly zero exposure to any sort of handgun so this 'knowledge' can only come from the telly.

My issue is that he passes himself off as an expert based on whatever training he has or hasn't had. He assumes he knows more than the masters because of what he read in an article or saw on TV, instead of their decades of experience fighting and training and teaching.

 

[jks9199]

Folks,
Perhaps we can return to the topic of the utility of training forms? Debate the post, not the poster.

Sent from my SM-G920V using Tapatalk

 

[Deleted member 39746]

Unfortunately there are a lot of schools that teach this as an application. For me personally I wouldn't use a knife hand against a kick or foot. Shin,leg, and ankle is going to beat-beat up my hand every time. I like to use my knife hand on things that don't move so much. This make more sense to me for knife hands.

Im personally not touching it again for use against the foot, that first experience was enough to nope out of it, then someone elaborated at a later date about breaking fingers etc, safer and easier to just dodge. That was the contrary to using a knife hand block and not the closed hand one.

Also you know if in the second vid what they were trying to kick in the counter? I cant decipher if its meant to me the leg or the groin.

 

[skribs]

Im personally not touching it again for use against the foot, that first experience was enough to nope out of it, then someone elaborated at a later date about breaking fingers etc, safer and easier to just dodge. That was the contrary to using a knife hand block and not the closed hand one.

Also you know if in the second vid what they were trying to kick in the counter? I cant decipher if its meant to me the leg or the groin.

It's not to be used against the foot, but the thigh. Attack where the leg is moving slow, so you don't take the full force of the kick.

Edit to add: you can use it against the foot if it's not in line with the foot's direction of power. Don't eat the kick with your hand, but deflect it. Or block the leg from executing it.

 

[Deleted member 39746]

It's not to be used against the foot, but the thigh. Attack where the leg is moving slow, so you don't take the full force of the kick.

Edit to add: you can use it against the foot if it's not in line with the foot's direction of power. Don't eat the kick with your hand, but deflect it. Or block the leg from executing it.

Wait, do you have a video of it being used like that?

The angle seems semi wrong from the literal application of the form to the leg for a thigh. Belay that upon revision i just tried it, you could reach the thigh for the intended scope of it. at least in some instances, that would explain a decent bit however.

 

[skribs]

Wait, do you have a video of it being used like that?

The angle seems semi wrong from the literal application of the form to the leg for a thigh. Belay that upon revision i just tried it, you could reach the thigh for the intended scope of it. at least in some instances, that would explain a decent bit however.

I can't speak specific to the ITF forms, but a lot of times in KKW forms the application isn't directly tied to the form. The motions of the form are exaggerated (for various teaching purposes), and then further obfuscated for aesthetic purposes. What the forms do is build muscle memory so the movements are easier, and the application is easier to learn.

I get that you want the application RIGHT NOW, but even with something more direct like boxing, you have to take time to work on the techniques, and they won't always be used the way you train them when you're just starting. There are things in the forms I'm finding applications for. There are other things I don't directly use, but the forms have helped me with (for example, forms which have you balance and perform blocks). I wouldn't do that in a fight, but the balance, posture, and control are useful.

The forms aren't presented in a way that you would actually use in fighting. But a lot of the concepts, modified to fit the situation, translate well. It just takes time and experimentation to figure out how that works.

 

[Gerry Seymour]

Thats not the case, i haven't really found a style which fits me due to lack of accessibility to them. i have also done TKD for 1-2 (maybe 3) years on and off, earlier i did more big bulks of it than i did later or it was usually a bulk sessions time off, bulk etc. I just don't really like the belt system to begin with and all of that.

Fundamentally speaking, i don't think the training system for TKD fits for someone focused on learning to fight 9/10 times. And in addition to that, i still stand by you learning any technique done in your form for your belt level, if you don't learn it, it shouldn't be in your belt, seems like wasted space.

And if you compare training time and where people are on average between styles and systems where does TKD sit with others for fighting on average? You cant really look from the top of it as the validity for it as a begginer, if it takes 4 years to get sufficient skills to fight someone and thats your focus and you need it before the 4 years are up? pretty much screwed, where as other places might give you it in a quicker time frame so mitigate that issue. Taking into account you are going to have to supplement some of these with some grappling component to account for that sector and cost in both hours and money to learn that to a sufficient degree and how well it will blend etc.


Also i might give it another shot, me falling out of doing is a mix of a disdain with the style and its training method and personal reasons, probably going to do some boxing sessions to get fundamentals in that then go back to it so i at least have a good standard of punching and the rest of the things boxing teaches. What would honestly be enough time to scout out TKD to see what it offers? at what approx belt rank would it be where i get to see the fundamental full picture?




i would state, it was me trying to apply a TKD technique in a light sparring match, which you should expect anyone who takes it serious to try to do. Like you would expect someone who does boxing to try and weave, hook uppercut etc if they spar someone.

I do honestly think the training in TKD takes too long for what it delivers. I dont want to have to give 4 years of time to get the fundamentals down, this isnt a degree of mastery it is the fundamentals of how to fight someone else. Granted you cant learn it over night, but there is a clear disparity in training regimes as people seems to learn it quicker in some places than others on average. (taking into account time dumped in the styles and personal intelligence etc)

I have also covered both of these above in some capacity as i have combined the responses. Im not entirely sure if this is still ontopic for this thread as its more issues with one style more than forms as a whole.


Oh and the amount of offshoots for TKD annoys me. It gets confusing after a while.

It takes time to learn to fight, regardless of style. Some styles have a more limited "vocabulary", so can progress faster. Some places offer more intense training and more hours of availability, so progression takes less calendar time.

But it does take MANY hours to develop skill from nothing. If someone already used to scrapping steps in, they might (or might not) have an advantage and be able to progress faster in the early stages of training. When folks say it takes years to learn to fight, this is usually in reference to the typical time commitment of the hobbyist. Some MMA gyms (like where @drop bear trains) offer intensive "first fight prep", which can be just a few months (I think theirs is 12 weeks). But if you look at the hours is requires, it's close to 1-2 years of hobbyist training.

And some people learn slower, especially at the early stages.

As for some things being offered early and taught for use later, that's a valid approach for things the beginner isn't expected to be able to use, but benefit from a long exposure time. You learn parts of them early, develop some good muscle habits, and learn to put them to use once the basic movement is working. In fact, this exists nearly everywhere, but doesn't look the same way. There are always movements where the instructor says, "So, you're going to start this by doing that thing you've been doing for a long time. Except now, instead of X, you're going to do Y." That's essentially the same thing, except there was another use placed on the movement earlier.

But understanding all of this requires some training time. You could learn to punch in a few lessons, if you focus on one or two punches. To learn to punch reasonably well probably requires 20+ hours for many people. To learn to punch a person well takes many more hours. And that's just learning to punch (probably one or two punches, at most). If you want to learn to move, defend, etc., that's going to take more time.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Also you know if in the second vid what they were trying to kick in the counter? I cant decipher if its meant to me the leg or the groin.

Your guess is as good as mine. To be honest it looks like they are modifying the kick so that the technique will work. Front kicks don't look "jammed up like that."

Since we have been taking about it, I wonder if that downward knife hand was actually meant to be used against the side of someone's head. For example, if I were going to try to "tackle" you for the the purpose of taking you down, how realistic would it be to apply that knife hand against the head.

For example, if someone comes in similar to this position. What's the possibility of being able to land a knife hand to the side of the face, or behind the ear? When you look at it, change the defender's stance to a TKD stance like in the forms. Whatever stance that may be.

If instead of trying to go backwards, go forward into a strong bow. Would that throw off the distance for the attacker? Would the attacker's face run into your knee? Or maybe someone is trying to get off the ground and they are close enough knife hand the person. For example, like after a throw to the ground the opponent tries to get up and their head is in a good position for that downward strike.

I