War on Drugs

[MSTCNC]

Nobody has argued marijuana is as harmful as LSD or any other drug. That's why the punishment is so different.

Fair enough, Sir.

And for the ones that say its harmless and potheads don't hurt anyone. I've been to several murders over a marijuana deal gone bad.

It just happened to be over Cannabis; but, would you agree that it could've just as easily been over any other commodity, illegal or not? When big money is involved, no matter over what, heads can roll, yes?

 

[ballen0351]

It just happened to be over Cannabis; but, would you agree that it could've just as easily been over any other commodity, illegal or not? When big money is involved, no matter over what, heads can roll, yes?

That's the point I'm making to say its harmless is a false argument. Making it legal won't change that. I've also seen several murders over prescription drug deals gone wrong. Where your dealing with large sums of money the temptation is there

I have also spoken to hundreds of hard core drug users and 90% of them will say they started with marijuana thought that was good and moved on. Almost all of them regretted ever trying marijuana. I'm not saying all pot smokers move on to hard drugs but there is a relation between the two.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Bottom line is what conscenting adults do peacefully is nobody's business. I can't help but wonder how many of those opposed to marijuana legalization drink beer or take a sip of alcohol every now and then.

Or how many have sex in anything but the missionary position. Or how many have sex with someone who is not their legal spouse?

Why does it matter? Because the government was never intended to be involved in legislating morality. And, it never fails, that when the government finally gets around to telling "you" you can't do something "you" like to do that it becomes a different story.

Tons of tax payer money gets flushed down the toilet in the pursuit of legislating behavior that has no bearing on the prevention of harm to body and/or property.

If everyone were able to legislate personal preference and opinion, then everything would be illegal.

...even that logic will be lost on some.

 

[ballen0351]

If it doesn't matter what you put in your body why stop at marijuana? If your argument is its your body then why can't I use cocaine or bath salts?
I also find it amusing that the pro marijuana crowd loves to bash alcohol to prove why they should be allowed to smoke weed. I also before you ask don't drink any longer. Haven't in quite some time.

Bottom line is what conscenting adults do peacefully is nobody's business. I can't help but wonder how many of those opposed to marijuana legalization drink beer or take a sip of alcohol every now and then.

Or how many have sex in anything but the missionary position. Or how many have sex with someone who is not their legal spouse?

Why does it matter? Because the government was never intended to be involved in legislating morality. And, it never fails, that when the government finally gets around to telling "you" you can't do something "you" like to do that it becomes a different story.

Tons of tax payer money gets flushed down the toilet in the pursuit of legislating behavior that has no bearing on the prevention of harm to body and/or property.

If everyone were able to legislate personal preference and opinion, then everything would be illegal.

...even that logic will be lost on some.

 

[K-man]

I have also spoken to hundreds of hard core drug users and 90% of them will say they started with marijuana thought that was good and moved on. Almost all of them regretted ever trying marijuana. I'm not saying all pot smokers move on to hard drugs but there is a relation between the two.

When I was working in the drug and alcohol area I did my own unofficial survey. These guys were all on some form of substitute for heroin and most would still be using regularly or intermittently. Every one I surveyed had started with marijuana.

As you rightly say, not all pot smokers move on to other drugs, but pot is obviously a step along the wrong road.

As for Celtic Crippler's comparison of Paxil and marijuana. Just because Paxil is legally available doesn't mean it should be prescribed. It has no better clinical response in mild to moderate depression than placebo or counseling. Apart from the side effects for the medicinal use of marijuana (quoted above) the abuse of marijuana is a lot worse. The things missing from the side effects of marijuana are the psychosis that is caused in enough people to cause great concern, the memory loss that can be long term and learning difficulties. Also there was no mention of the uncontrolled aggression that some people experience. Don't play down the bad side of pot. The hydroponic varieties are far more potent than the pot that was around when we were kids. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

As to legislation of morality every law we have is legislation of morality. We decided murder was immoral so we outlawed it child porn was immoral so we outlawed it. Almost every law we have is legislated morality. Its why we have laws because as a society we decided how we wanted to live and what moral code we based our laws on

 

[Tgace]

The THC levels in today's weed is FAR higher than the "harmless" joint many of us/you smoked as a teen. Compare it to beer? In the case of this hydro/medical grade stuff, its more like comparing it to "go blind" moonshine.

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[Carol]

The THC levels in today's weed is FAR higher than the "harmless" joint many of us/you smoked as a teen. Compare it to beer? In the case of this hydro/medical grade stuff, its more like comparing it to "go blind" moonshine.

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Respectfully, I don't think that's a fair comparison. I don't have a dog in this hunt here but "Go Blind" moonshine has the dangers that it does not from ethanol (the drinkable alcohol) but from the methanol (think antifreeze), which is toxic to many forms of life. A non-lethal dose of methanol can destroy soft, vulnerable tissue in the body, including the eyes.

Moonshine would be a better comparison IMO to the homemade dope out there whose impurities can ravage the body more than the recreational ingredient.

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[Tgace]

I guess I was going for a more metaphorical comparison....the point I'm trying to make is that today's bud is far more "high test" than the fatties Cheech and Chong used to torch up.

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[Carol]

I guess I was going for a more metaphorical comparison....the point I'm trying to make is that today's bud is far more "high test" than the fatties Cheech and Chong used to torch up.

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Roger. Sorry about that...we Vulcans forget that real humans talk in metaphors


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[celtic_crippler]

If it doesn't matter what you put in your body why stop at marijuana? If your argument is its your body then why can't I use cocaine or bath salts?
I also find it amusing that the pro marijuana crowd loves to bash alcohol to prove why they should be allowed to smoke weed. I also before you ask don't drink any longer. Haven't in quite some time.

I'm pro-whatever the hell you want to do that doesn't effect me. Why? Because I understand the logic behind it. Because I don't want anyone telling me what to do with my life. I'm a big boy and don't need a nanny to look out for me. If you want to eat bath salts, go for it. It's called natural selection. Did it ever occur to you that if it weren't for the failed drug policy that people may not have ever thought to use bath salts in the first place? Probably not...

So you don't drink anymore? But you did. It was your choice to drink. It was your choice not to drink. And that's the point: CHOICE. It's related to that "freedom" thing that people like to talk about but don't understand.

 

[celtic_crippler]

As to legislation of morality every law we have is legislation of morality. We decided murder was immoral so we outlawed it child porn was immoral so we outlawed it. Almost every law we have is legislated morality. Its why we have laws because as a society we decided how we wanted to live and what moral code we based our laws on

NO. Murder is harm to ANOTHER. Child porn causes harm to ANOTHER. Some goober sittin' on his coutch having a drink or a smoke isn't hurting anyone, except themselves maybe. And who are you to tell them how to live thier life? Likely the same person who doesn't like anyone else tellling you how to live yours.

Our prisons are bursting at the seams with people who commit "victimless crimes." The most "free" nation in the world has more people in prison per capita than any other nation... ANY.

People like you have been spoon-fed propaganda since you came into this world and won't consider for a moment that the source of that propaganda may not have your best interests at heart. You live under the illusion that you are free... and the only "law" you need to look at to see just how far our Republic has been perverted is the Constitution of the United States. I might also reccomend reading the Bill of Rights, and perhaps the Federalist Papers if you get the chance.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Respectfully, I don't think that's a fair comparison. I don't have a dog in this hunt here but "Go Blind" moonshine has the dangers that it does not from ethanol (the drinkable alcohol) but from the methanol (think antifreeze), which is toxic to many forms of life. A non-lethal dose of methanol can destroy soft, vulnerable tissue in the body, including the eyes.

Moonshine would be a better comparison IMO to the homemade dope out there whose impurities can ravage the body more than the recreational ingredient.

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Case in point... And just how many instances of people going blind from drinking moonshine have there been since the end of Prohibition? Exactly... sigh.

 

[ballen0351]

You talk of victimless crimes let me ask you this how many naked grown men going thru neighborhoods attacking people objects children ve you had to fight during your day because they choose to smoke a little PCP because its there body after all its there choice so they smoke a dipper (cigarette dipped in PCP) and then go nuts. You can't hurt them because they feel no pain they have almost super strength because they have no mental boundaries and are full of adrenaline. Because where I work that's a daily activity for us. How many heroin houses have you walked in and see people looking like zombies mindless sitting around and there are 3 or 4 children in dirty diapers no food. How many woman have you talked to who's boyfriends got them hooked on crack or heroin only to turn around and force them into prostitution and they are to drugs out to help themselves but hey its victimless right? Sad thing is just 11 hours ago I was standing next to a victim of drug violence he was shot 6 times DRT 22 years old father of 7. 100s of people around and nobody knows nothing. Well I'm finally home from work its about 130pm here I was supposed to be home 10 hours ago so I'll be going to sleep now I need to get up in 2 hours and get back to work so have fun thinking the drug game is victimless I've been in the drug game for years and have seen its victims

 

[celtic_crippler]

I can not put it any better than Dr. Sowell. He sums it up with intelligence, wisdom, and common sense. You, sir, are what he refers to as a "crusader". That's not intended as an insult, but it means you have a narrow vision of reality and that this failed policy creates more victims than if it did not exist.

There comes a time where one must accept the truth of reality, and show compassion instead of being ruled by guilt. "If at first you don't succeed, try try again and then give up. Don't be a damn fool about it." ~ WC Fields.

If you can put your emotions to the side for a moment, take the time to listen to Dr. Sowell.

 

[K-man]

I can not put it any better than Dr. Sowell. He sums it up with intelligence, wisdom, and common sense. You, sir, are what he refers to as a "crusader". That's not intended as an insult, but it means you have a narrow vision of reality and that this failed policy creates more victims than if it did not exist.

With respect, I feel it is you who is crusading. Drugs are banned for a reason and it is you who would like to change the laws as they currently exist. The fact that these types of laws exist world wide means that they are not the views of a few misguided individuals in your country. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

I can not put it any better than Dr. Sowell. He sums it up with intelligence, wisdom, and common sense. You, sir, are what he refers to as a "crusader". That's not intended as an insult, but it means you have a narrow vision of reality and that this failed policy creates more victims than if it did not exist. There comes a time where one must accept the truth of reality, and show compassion instead of being ruled by guilt. "If at first you don't succeed, try try again and then give up. Don't be a damn fool about it." ~ WC Fields. If you can put your emotions to the side for a moment, take the time to listen to Dr. Sowell.

my argument has nothing to do with emotions its reality. its easy to say oh its your body do what you want with it you hurt nobody but yourself. Its such a simple statement and prior to becoming LEO I felt the same way. The problem is when that theroy is added to reality the outcome is much more severe then its just your body your hurting nobody else.Thats ny problem with the Libertarian party. On paper it sounds great theUSA needs to but out and drugs and prostitution should be legal its victimless. The problem starts when you add reality to the mix. The world is not black and white there can be no absolutes.Also you keep saying the war on drugs is a faliure. How can you say that? I personally have put some very bad people in Jail for very long times. And all over the wolrd that happens every day. If your answer is well there are still drugs out there then the war on Rape is a failure, the war on Murder is a failure, the war on child sexual assault is a faliure. Fact is we will Always have crime. There are two ways to end crime. We all die out or we legalize everything. Other then that we will have crime. The root of alot of crimes can in some way be traced back to drugs. Making it legal wont stop that.

 

[MSTCNC]

Please... just take the 90-minutes to watch this documentary...

Thank you! {salute}

 

[Master Dan]

Actually the marijuana being smuggled into the US would still be illegal, much as bootleg liquor is illegal. So those interdiction efforts would still continue. Also as said, when patrolling, the officers are not specific as to drugs, just they are looking for smuggling, be it drugs, contraband goods, or even people.

Marijuana is an odd case as far as drugs go. It does have medical benefits, the addiction rate is lower than alcohol, most users are not reduced to crime to pay for it. However, it is a mind altering substance and can cause harm to the human body if abused. It definitely does not have all the dangers of alcohol, which is legal. If pot were legal, the price might be even lower with taxes, because delivery risk and cost would be lower. I don't know how I feel about legalizing it, but there is a lot of misinformation out there from both sides of the issue.

This is one of those issues that turn politics on its' head. Those that argue for smaller government, less government control, and the right of individulas to make thier own choices are usually the same ones arguing against legalising pot. Funny world.

The Drug war is a joke always has been by those who sit on some moral high ground and look down and say well we must because of this or that. Law enforcement incarceration is a for profit business especially drugs we incarcerate 25% of the worlds prison population here which is majority minority race and poor. Eliminate DEA legalize all drugs and put the money into education, job training and treatment for those who want and need it. Will there be increace deaths and addiction in the short term yes but in the long run people children will make a free agency choice to be an adict or to lead a more productive lives.

Will a desperate person stell to get cheap drugs possibly but far fewer than present and what will happen is no more boarder wars of Cartels fighting over territory they are out of busness because we will make the drugs here and tax them. The drug war has never won the demand is to high and will never go away by prohibition. It never worked for alcohol and never will for drugs. Corporations are making billions from the support of the drug wars while at the same time selling the ingredients to make many of them and our congress and states thanks to deregulation allowing pain clinics have become pushers selling mass quantities of legalized drugs.


It all a large hipocratic bunch of bull and in the end the poor and minorities do the dying all on your tax dollars what an oximoron screaming for smaller government yet feeding a burocracy that in fact does not want it to end and in many cases take money from the cartels to look the other way. The whole thing is a scientist dream of perpetual energy that renews itself to infinity. You will never see any sanity on this issue unless we become so broke there is no law enforcemetn at all? Any politition who would take a stand on this issue would be pumulled by the religous right and secretely by the corporations that make profits on both sides of the fence. cocaine would never have been made ilegal except for the rumor propaganda that Blacks were going to become horny and rape white women.

It all about have and have nots and race period. Employing people that get a thrill rush out of chasig down sick weak and ingnorant people? Take the profits from the Thugs on the streets no money no guns no gangs its school work or deport them to Texas they know how to treat folk just ask Perry on his ranch

 

[ballen0351]

So your idea is legalize it all and people will stop stealing and robbing people because the drugs are now legal? The gangs will just go away the gang bangers will go get real jobs. So riddle me this batman. If crack head Alice can't afford a 10 dollar crack rock so she steals your stuff to get it why do you believe when the crack is legal taxed and regulated all of a sudden she can afford it? Also where is the crack and cocaine going to come from once its legal? Oh I know the same criminal cartels only now we have made them more powerful because they don't need to hide the importation of drugs its legitimate so back in Mexico and south America they can kill even more people over the now legal drug trade.

And this false argument about the prisons full of innocent drug users is so beyond exaggerated its a down right lie.