War on Drugs

[celtic_crippler]

Judge Jim Gray was at one time a "warrior" in the "War on Drugs" and is now Gary Johnson's VP running mate for the Libertarians.

Please listen to what he has to say and, by all means, feel free to comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6t1EM4Onao&feature=share

 

[mmartist]

I think he is right. The harder you squeeze the more sand goes between your fingers. And if you look at the Netherlands they have really made it work.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

I think he is right. The harder you squeeze the more sand goes between your fingers. And if you look at the Netherlands they have really made it work.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Recent_developments

It didn't work. They're cracking down because of it. A failed social experiment.

 

[Carol]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drug_policy_of_the_Netherlands#Recent_developments

It didn't work. They're cracking down because of it. A failed social experiment.

Welcome back! You've been missed around here

 

[ballen0351]

Making drugs legal will do nothing to stop drug related crime. If a crack head needs to break into your house to steal money to buy a $10 crack rock how is making it legal and taxing it so now it cost $15 going to make him not break into your house?

 

[JesterXY]

“Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results”


Which quote exactly describes America’s “War on Drugs”.


The problem is that the Pharmaceutical corporations don’t want it to end because of the vast profits to be made. The various agencies who are responsible for “fighting” the Drug War don’t want to end it because of the money coming in to support all those personnel and the really awesome toy’s they get to play with. The politicians (for the most part) don’t want to end it because of the power it brings them. And God knows the Drug Lords certainly don’t want the money to stop flowing.


Which leaves us, the citizens of the U.S., sitting here in the middle grabbing our ankles and hoping it doesn’t hurt to much.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

We do things wrong. The solution is to fix what we do wrong, not to throw our hands in the air and give up.

http://www.peterboroughtoday.co.uk/...-drug-high-went-on-naked-tesco-shop-1-3957506

This is what you get with legal drugs.

http://troy.patch.com/articles/troy-police-teen-found-freaking-out-in-park-after-smoking-spice

This is what you get with legal drugs.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...bie-proves-need-to-ban-bath-salts-experts-say

This is what you get with legal drugs.

Any questions?

 

[K-man]

Judge Jim Gray was at one time a "warrior" in the "War on Drugs" and is now Gary Johnson's VP running mate for the Libertarians.

Please listen to what he has to say and, by all means, feel free to comment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6t1EM4Onao&feature=share

Perhaps the fallacy of his argument is that he talks about getting rid of "drug" laws but limits his discussion to marijuana. Personally, I don't like pot and I'm not in favour of its legalisation. But, compared to heroin, cocaine and 'ice' it is almost innocuous. If he meant the discussion to be only about marijuana then it might fix a small part of the problem but just a small part. He talks about the "drug bosses" making a fortune. They do, but not out of marijuana. They make money big time from amphetamines, cocaine and heroin. Do you really want them to be freely available? He goes on to say that legalising the sale of drugs and restricting the sales to adults will stop kids getting drugs. ???? Yeah right. That worked well with tobacco and alcohol didn't it?

Legalising the drugs may reduce the law enforcement costs chasing traffickers, but what about the additional costs of testing drivers. Work places also will have to have testing as well. As I see it, the costs will just be transferred from one area to another.

I believe in harm minimisation and have been involved in that area for years. There are many things that could/should be done but blanket legalisation of drugs is not the answer, IMHO. :asian:

Oh! And, welcome back Bill. :wavey:

 

[Big Don]

"Medical Marijuana" as "Legalized" in more than a few states is a crock. A short time ago, Israeli scientists developed a strain of marijuana with INCREASED health benefits and NO HIGH. Have you heard people clamoring for it? No? Why do you think that is?

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Legalising the drugs may reduce the law enforcement costs chasing traffickers, but what about the additional costs of testing drivers. Work places also will have to have testing as well. As I see it, the costs will just be transferred from one area to another.

It won't even do that. I floored a friend of mine the other day who sprung that one on me. Really? Reduce drug interdiction costs? How? All the resources we use to detect the entry of illegal drugs can just go home now, right? Oh wait. They still have to interdict the drugs we don't legalize. So the same resources are still engaged in the same jobs, detecting and interdicting illegal drugs - just minus pot. And that changes what, exactly? Right, it changes nothing. Interdiction still costs the same. No money saved.

Oh! And, welcome back Bill. :wavey:

Thanks!

 

[WC_lun]

Actually the marijuana being smuggled into the US would still be illegal, much as bootleg liquor is illegal. So those interdiction efforts would still continue. Also as said, when patrolling, the officers are not specific as to drugs, just they are looking for smuggling, be it drugs, contraband goods, or even people.

Marijuana is an odd case as far as drugs go. It does have medical benefits, the addiction rate is lower than alcohol, most users are not reduced to crime to pay for it. However, it is a mind altering substance and can cause harm to the human body if abused. It definitely does not have all the dangers of alcohol, which is legal. If pot were legal, the price might be even lower with taxes, because delivery risk and cost would be lower. I don't know how I feel about legalizing it, but there is a lot of misinformation out there from both sides of the issue.

This is one of those issues that turn politics on its' head. Those that argue for smaller government, less government control, and the right of individulas to make thier own choices are usually the same ones arguing against legalising pot. Funny world.

 

[K-man]

Marijuana is an odd case as far as drugs go. It does have medical benefits, the addiction rate is lower than alcohol, most users are not reduced to crime to pay for it. However, it is a mind altering substance and can cause harm to the human body if abused. It definitely does not have all the dangers of alcohol, which is legal. If pot were legal, the price might be even lower with taxes, because delivery risk and cost would be lower. I don't know how I feel about legalizing it, but there is a lot of misinformation out there from both sides of the issue.

Not to mention the medicinal uses of amphetamines, heroin or cocaine.

 

[WC_lun]

There are actual medical uses for amphetamines, heroin, cocaine, and others. However, the risk outwieghts the reward very quickly with those drugs and alternatives have been found. The health risk with marijuana is much lower.

I'm not saying pot should be legal. I am saying it should not be dismissed out of hand, as there are some good arguements on both sides.

 

[K-man]

There are actual medical uses for amphetamines, heroin, cocaine, and others. However, the risk outwieghts the reward very quickly with those drugs and alternatives have been found. The health risk with marijuana is much lower.

I'm not saying pot should be legal. I am saying it should not be dismissed out of hand, as there are some good arguements on both sides.

I believe the risk only outweighs the reward when the drugs have been cut or produced under questionable conditions. A heroin addict could use safely for life if he had pharmaceutical grade heroin of known purity and clean equipment. Heroin was used in our midwifery wards up until the 1970s and I was making cocaine eye drops at that time. Amphetamines are still used for narcolepsy and hyperkinetic brain disorder. Abuse of marijuana, on the other hand, has totally destroyed the quality of life of one member of my family and severely affected the cognitive ability of another.

Not disputing what you say but just adding another perspective. :asian:

 

[ballen0351]

Making drugs legal won't save the govt any money it will just move the DEA from the department of justice over to the IRS and they will be looking for untaxed and unregulated drugs instead of illegal drugs. Crime won't go away it just changes what agency enforces it. Like I said the crimes that actually effect you and I robbery burglary and thefts will still happen. The new number one abused non alcohol drug in America is already legal its prescription drugs and around here pharmacy armed robbery is up 600% from 10 years ago.

 

[celtic_crippler]

Ummm... The Netherlands policy works and is working. Their reported marijuana use is around 5% now while the reported use in the US is 14%. I say "reported" because I have a feeling that much of it's use goes unreported due to the stigma associated with it.

The proof's in the puddin'... drug policy and prohibition do not work to curtail use. It was proven during the prohibition of alcohol and it's been proven over and over again in the US FAILED drug policy. More evidence of failure here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D.A.R.E.#Studies_on_effectiveness

I realize that some have "personal" issues they can not overcome in order to think about this issue rationally, I only hope that more do not. The facts are facts... The War on Drugs is a bigger failure than Prohibition ever was. It does not work to curtail use, in fact it increases use, and only benefits those who it supposedly is supposed to hurt.

If you won't consider the perspective of someone like Judge Gray on the matter, no amount of fact or study will likely change your concrete thinking.

Fact: The government is telling you what you can and can not put in your body. From drugs not sold through their pals in the Pharmaceutical Lobby to the size of a cup of soda. How long before they legislate what you put in your mind? Something to ponder while you still have one to ponder it with...


By the way, speaking of the Pharmaceutical lobby... I don't see anybody railing against them? And why's that? Because Big Brother says that the drugs they sell you are okay and legal? Well, lets throw more facts out there... And take a look at the adverse reactions of Paxil vs Marijuana shall we?


Adverse Reactions of Paxil: CNS-asthenia, dizziness, headache, insomnia, somnolence, tremor, nervousness, suicidal behavior, anxiety, parethesia, confusion, agitation. CV- palpitations, vasodilation, orthostatic hypotension. EENT-lump or tightness in throat, blurred vision. GI- dry mouth, nausea, constipation, diarrhea, flatulence, vomiting, dyspepsia, dysgeusia, decreased or increased appetite, abdominal pain. GU-ejaculatory disturbances, sexual dysfunction, urinary frequency. MUSCULOSKELETAL - myopathy, myalgia, myasthenia. SKIN- diaphoresis, rash, pruritis. OTHER- decreased libido, yawing

Adverse Reactions of Marijuana: CNS- drowsiness, euphoria, amnesia. CV- orthostatic hypotension, vasodilation EENT- visual disturbances GI- dry mouth, increased appetite OTHER: increased libido .

So who's the bigger ****? The guy on the corner or the guy lining the pockets of your favorite politician?

 

[ballen0351]

Who's the bigger ****? I'd say the heroin dealer that fronts you a "free" gram or two then calls you 10 times a day telling you how good his new stuff is. Even after you tell him your going into rehab. Then when he has you hooked you now own him for the "free" gram he gave you 2 months ago. So he keeps calling and when you try to pay for the free gram he gives you more and just says you can pay him latter so you ALWAYS owe him. When I was buying heroin (undercover as an officer). My phone would ring over 50 times a day from different dealers. Thankfully I wasn't addicted to drugs because if I was there is NO WAY I could ever have gotten clean.


And if you want to compare pharmaceutical drugs vs pot. How many people are still alive today because they have pot?

 

[MSTCNC]

OK, as The Snowman (Smokey and The Bandit) would say, “Hold onto your ***, Fred!”

In general, when it comes to Cannabis, the general public is sorely, SORELY misinformed. This is, in part, is due to the campaign of mis-information and propaganda that the government (big and small) has waged since the days of Harry J. Anslinger (1930's). To be truly educated enough to speak on the subject of Cannabis Prohibition, other than simply spewing the standard DARE and "Officer Friendly" rhetoric, I would recommend reading one book, and watching at least one documentary, if not two.

The book is The Emporer Wears No Clothes by Jack Herrer. The documentary is HIGH: A True Tale of American Marijuana. Both are available to read or view online. If you bit-torrent at all, they are readily available there. If so inclined, another documentary (based on Herrer's book) worth viewing is The Union: The Business of Getting High. It is on YouTube (and other sites) in it's entirety.

Personally, I am rather well-read on the matter, and can say without hesitation that, as a people, we've been downright hoodwinked into the belief that Cannabis is even remotely the same as black tar heroin, cocaine, or LSD.

Harry J. Ansliger was a bureaucrat, and prohibitionist. When Prohibition ended, he and his staff needed jobs. Anslinger talked The President into establishing The Bureau of Narcotics, what is now the DEA. So, one may ask, "why did he do that"? Well, Anslinger was engaged to be married to a young lady by the last name of Mellon... as in financier Andrew Mellon of Mellon Bank. Who was Mellon's biggest client at the time? DuPont Chemical. And who, after World War II received a hefty share of the petrol-chemical patents that the Germans were forced to surrender? If you guessed DuPont... DING! Give that person a Kewpie Doll!

So, DuPont has all of these chemical compounds that they could make, things like nylon and plastics of all types; but, they had one problem. An article written for Popular Mechanics was expounding the value of a new "super crop"... Hemp (IE Marijuana). Seems this plant was capable of making everything from medicines, to cellulose, to textiles. You see, the ONLY difference between Hemp, and Marijuana, is how the seeds are planted. If you plant one seed per-foot.. you get plants with many, many flowers, also known as “buds”. This is where the THC that gives a person the “high” comes from, not the seeds, stems, or leaves. If, however, you cover that same square-foot with seeds, the only “bud that grows is the top kola, and this gives you a hemp plant.

Well, DuPont didn't care for that at all; so, he rang up his banker, and TOLD him to talk to his soonn to be son-in-law... Anslinger. Toss in some static from residents in the Southwest US over immigrants from Mexico, and WHAMO! Public outcry.

Honestly, if Cannabis was SO evil, why would former President Carter have come out (while in office) that he was in favor of legalization of possession of up to an ounce of Cannabis for personal consumption. This was tabled ONLY after his Drug Policy Advisor was busted for Cocaine. Leaving him no choice but to ramp up enforcement efforts. I won't even speak on the Nixon-era report that was ignored after they came back saying that Cannabis was NOT dangerous, addictive, or any of the other fodder that Nixon was trying to dump on the public.

There is more to it than this Reader's Digest posting; but, trust me, if more people knew "The rest of the story"... they'd be MIGHTY pissed off.

Like I said, I'm rather well-read on this; but, please, DO NOT trust me and MY ramblings. Educate yourselves outside of what Big Brother has told you about Cannabis... and see if it doesn't put a burr under your saddle blanket... and end up giving you ramblings of your own.

Respectfully Submitted,

 

[ballen0351]

Nobody has argued marijuana is as harmful as LSD or any other drug. That's why the punishment is so different. Having worked in a Drug task force for many years I too am educated on the subject. In order for us to even consider a marijuana investigation we had to have quantities in excess of 500 pounds or we didn't bother. So the people that talk about guys going to prison for a gram of marijuana are very exaggerated in all my time in law enforcement I've only seen one person get a jail sentence for a simple possession of marijuana. And the only reason he got any time he had several pounds of marijuana and took a plea to simple possession and got 10 days in jail to be served on weekends only.

And for the ones that say its harmless and potheads don't hurt anyone. I've been to several murders over a marijuana deal gone bad. There are big profits in marijuana sales making it legal won't remove the profit so if there is profit to be made there will be criminals looking for ways to get there share.
I personally could care less if you want to sit in your basement smoke weed and play with a black light. But the law says its illegal so I'll enforce it. If you don't like it make your case to get it changed so far it has not been a good enough argument to change the law. Someday I'm sure it will and we will see what happens. I have my thoughts on what will happen but I hope I'm wrong.

 

[Tgace]

Those who think the DEA is all over marijuana trafficking have never worked with them...unless you are looking at a case involving hundreds of pounds they are really not that interested. And with high end weed going for 2-4K a pound, local agencies don't have the funds to work large scale marijuana investigations. The stats on all the money spent on weed enforcement is cooked.

There is a pricetag on any LE activity. The numbers can be slanted in whatever political direction you want to spin it. There is probably millions of dollars spent "enforcing drunk driving", or. Cell phone use while driving. If you seriously think there will be any tangible difference in regards to finance if we legalized weed tomorrow you are a rube.

Not that I'm saying weed is the root of all evil, but the arguments used to support legalization are spun pretty hard in some cases.

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