Walmart Steals Your Cart Because You Won't Let Them Check Your Receipt

[arnisador]

If the alarm goes off they have justification to detain you. (Yes, even if it's their fault.) That's not quite the same thing.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

So, am I legally required to allow them to deactivate the device that is part of the item I just bought?

Typically, they remove or deactivate the device as part of the checkout sequence, before you have paid. So it's not yours yet.

If it goes off when you go through the door because they failed to remove or deactivate it properly, I doubt that you're legally required to give it back to them to do so, but if it's one of those plastic tags that they stick in clothes, you'll probably want them to remove it.

Ultimately, the point is this - when you pay for something, ownership transfers to you, and you are not obligated to prove that you bought it - to anyone. It is up to them to prove you didn't.

Some states have laws that protect the shopkeeper, which give the status of 'meeting probable cause' to such things as security buzzers going off - so if it goes off, they do have the legal authority to detain you to determine if you've stolen anything, and if you haven't, oh well, too bad, so sad, have a nice day.

Demanding receipts or to look into your bag after you've paid is not 'probable cause' unless the store wants to argue in court that they have sufficient cause to believe that every single one of their customers is a crook (I doubt they'd win that one).

Stores do need to protect themselves against shoplifting, so they walk a very careful line and play a dangerous game. They generally tell their door security people (and no, those are not the Wal-Mart greeters, they are hired as security people) to act as if they *do* have the authority to demand the receipt, to search the bag and etc. And most people comply, lining up like docile sheep because a) they don't know any better or b) they know but don't mind, or c) they know and mind, but 'don't want any trouble'.

Everyone is free to choose their own path. I am not in the habit of turning over my property to be searched on the whims of a store security guard, so I don't. I never have. I haven't had any problems with refusing to do so. But that's just me.

 

[Marginal]

The Super Wal-Mart in Durango would've given some of you a stroke I'm betting. If something tripped the alarm (which seemed to include a non crossed receipt in some cases) The entrance and exit doors would slam shut while an automated voiced announced "you have activated the Wal-Mart theft protection system!" the doors would remain shut until whatever had set the alarm off had been cleared. There was a Durango PD annex built right into the trap zone for good measure.

 

[The Last Legionary]

Went to Walmart.

I bought a dvd. No bag.
Had dvd in 1 hand, reciept in other.

alarm went off. I keep walking. I feel a hand on my shoulder.

"Why are you detaining me?"

"I have to check your bag"

"I have no bag".

"I have to check your reciept"

"Your cashier didn't deactivate your loss prevention alarm thingy."

"I have to check your reciept"

"No. You don't. The dvd that is in my and set it off. Here, watch." I shove dvd into sensors alarm goes off again.

"Well I have to deactivate that."

"You want me to give you my dvd so you can play with it? Sure, that'll be $5 rental fee."

"Sir you're being difficult, I need to deactivate that. Its store policy."

"Show me."

"Wha?"

"Show me the written policy, inform me that you are detaining me under supicion of wrongdoing, call the cops, or get out of my way. But the DVD, it's case, and all contents ae now legally mine as you have been paid in full, as a check of register #5's journal tape will clearly show. I'll even wait here while you check the journal tape, transaction # xxxxxxx. But I have no legal reason to hand over to you, my righfully purchased property, nor show you my reciept, which is also my property, not yours."

"I'm calling the police."

"OK.".

30 minutes later, cops show up. In the mean tme, I counted at least 10 other people who go through, set off the alarm and no one stops them.

Cops arrive, we both explain our sides, cop tells me not to be a dick in the future and I get sent on my way. When I left, the store manager and reciept checker were being chewed out for wasting the cops time, and consistant policy enforcement. Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.

Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.

 

[Archangel M]

Id have given all of you the lecture about wasting my time.

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Would I be evil if I scattered active security tags, sticky side up, in the cross walk leading into the store or mall?

 

[shesulsa]

Cops arrive, we both explain our sides, cop tells me not to be a dick in the future and I get sent on my way. When I left, the store manager and reciept checker were being chewed out for wasting the cops time, and consistant policy enforcement. Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.

Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.

Actually, having worked retail (I'm sure you have too, as just about everybody does as a teen or ... something) it would have been possible for you to have an additional dvd or other inventory-controlled item in your jacket or pants or whathaveyou; hence, I would insist on deactivating the proven purchase and have you walk through the anti-theft device again devoid of your purchase and hand it back to you intact once you go back through.

But then again, I'm not a megastore like Wal-Mart who can afford a 10% theft loss. :idunno:

To my way of thinking ... if you're not going to back up your anti-theft prevention methods, why have them at all?

Sometimes ya gotta be RIGHT ... and sometimes ya gotta be POLITE. If you enjoy being a dick, then by all means be one ... just don't complain when you get spanked instead of stroked.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

To my way of thinking ... if you're not going to back up your anti-theft prevention methods, why have them at all?

They play the percentages.

Just having visible anti-theft devices stop some casual theft (probably not pros).

Asking to see receipts and to look in bags result in a high percentage of voluntary compliance by customers.

And the few (like me) who do not steal and do not comply with their requests to see receipts or search bags do not represent a loss to them.

That leaves professional shoplifters and amateurs with brass balls.

So it works as intended. There is no need for them to get 100% compliance with their 'store policy' of inspecting receipts - 80% will do nicely. They know that.

 

[The Last Legionary]

I think you may have missed this part

Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.

I walked through the detector without setting it off. Waving the DVD by the detector did set it off. My friends also walked through without setting it off. The officer who arrived was intellegent enough to see the logic of "No humands make alam go, item does, therefore item is the cause.". He was shown the reciept, noted that th item liste was in fact the item in hand, and that the price on the reciept also matched.

If Walmart, or any store would like to MODIFY my propery, property that I am clearly the owner of, then they can pay me for the privilage.

Or, would you allow them to dig around in your purse and run your things over their demagnetizer because they hire incompetents?

Mind you, I could have made an issue of their employee assaulting me.
Before anyone comments, if tapping a woman on the shoulder is "sexual assault" (held up in several court cases, and employement hearings as cause for dismissal), then touching me without my consent can also aguably be considered "assault".
This is also why so many placed have "don't touch the customer" policies.

 

[grydth]

Went to Walmart.

I bought a dvd. No bag.
Had dvd in 1 hand, reciept in other.

alarm went off. I keep walking. I feel a hand on my shoulder.

"Why are you detaining me?"

"I have to check your bag"

"I have no bag".

"I have to check your reciept"

"Your cashier didn't deactivate your loss prevention alarm thingy."

"I have to check your reciept"

"No. You don't. The dvd that is in my and set it off. Here, watch." I shove dvd into sensors alarm goes off again.

"Well I have to deactivate that."

"You want me to give you my dvd so you can play with it? Sure, that'll be $5 rental fee."

"Sir you're being difficult, I need to deactivate that. Its store policy."

"Show me."

"Wha?"

"Show me the written policy, inform me that you are detaining me under supicion of wrongdoing, call the cops, or get out of my way. But the DVD, it's case, and all contents ae now legally mine as you have been paid in full, as a check of register #5's journal tape will clearly show. I'll even wait here while you check the journal tape, transaction # xxxxxxx. But I have no legal reason to hand over to you, my righfully purchased property, nor show you my reciept, which is also my property, not yours."

"I'm calling the police."

"OK.".

30 minutes later, cops show up. In the mean tme, I counted at least 10 other people who go through, set off the alarm and no one stops them.

Cops arrive, we both explain our sides, cop tells me not to be a dick in the future and I get sent on my way. When I left, the store manager and reciept checker were being chewed out for wasting the cops time, and consistant policy enforcement. Mind you, I had witnesses, was polite, and could prove it was the dvd, not me who was setting off the alarm.

Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.

Sorry, but I believe your own story conclusively proves exactly the opposite of your conclusion.

This incident turned a simple shopping visit into what appears to be a 45 minute conflict. I assume you could have put that time to any one of a number of better uses; I assure you the police could have.

You have nothing to show for this - no dragons slain, no opponents arrested, no store chain changing policy, no settlement/coupon..... nothing.

Oddly enough, that store employee was trying to do you a favor. I received a Winter coat for a present that did not have the anti-theft device deactivated. I learned this only when it began setting off alarms as I was entering other stores.

Sometimes, its worth following what our sensei and sifu teach... just walk away.

 

[arnisador]

Sometimes, it's worth being a jerk.

Heh. It's certainly more satisfying.

Alas, I doubt it ever changes anything, but I believe you do have to fight to keep your rights or they'll disappear on you while you're not being vigilant.

 

[MJS]

Typically, they remove or deactivate the device as part of the checkout sequence, before you have paid. So it's not yours yet.

If it goes off when you go through the door because they failed to remove or deactivate it properly, I doubt that you're legally required to give it back to them to do so, but if it's one of those plastic tags that they stick in clothes, you'll probably want them to remove it.

Ultimately, the point is this - when you pay for something, ownership transfers to you, and you are not obligated to prove that you bought it - to anyone. It is up to them to prove you didn't.

Some states have laws that protect the shopkeeper, which give the status of 'meeting probable cause' to such things as security buzzers going off - so if it goes off, they do have the legal authority to detain you to determine if you've stolen anything, and if you haven't, oh well, too bad, so sad, have a nice day.

Demanding receipts or to look into your bag after you've paid is not 'probable cause' unless the store wants to argue in court that they have sufficient cause to believe that every single one of their customers is a crook (I doubt they'd win that one).

Stores do need to protect themselves against shoplifting, so they walk a very careful line and play a dangerous game. They generally tell their door security people (and no, those are not the Wal-Mart greeters, they are hired as security people) to act as if they *do* have the authority to demand the receipt, to search the bag and etc. And most people comply, lining up like docile sheep because a) they don't know any better or b) they know but don't mind, or c) they know and mind, but 'don't want any trouble'.

Everyone is free to choose their own path. I am not in the habit of turning over my property to be searched on the whims of a store security guard, so I don't. I never have. I haven't had any problems with refusing to do so. But that's just me.

Bill,

Could you clarify the bold statements for me. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it seems that in the first paragraph, you're saying that if the buzzer goes off, they have the right to check your bags, but in the next, you're saying that they don't. Obviously they're going to need your slip to show what you purchased matches whats in the bag, so I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here. I could go thru the line with 3 rubbermaid storage containers (the large kind) stacked inside of each other, with 20 dvds lined on the bottom of one of them. The buzzer will no doubt go off, so while it will seem as if I paid for the containers, fact is, I didn't pay for the other items.

As far as the last few lines go...this reminds me of a video clip that was posted on here quite some time ago, about a random mv spot check, which IIRC, was at a boarder. It seemed that the person in the car was taping the stop and pretty much being an *** to the cop, repeatedly asking what grounds she had for stopping him.

Now, people are free to think what they want, but for myself, I'm all for doing what I can to avoid a headache. So if someone asks to look into my bag, and I have nothing to hide, what is it costing me to let them look? 10 sec of my time? I'd be willing to bet, were this taking place in say an airport, train station, etc., and a LEO stopped you to do a random check, that you'd probably find yourself in a heap of trouble if you didn't let them look in your bags.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Bill,

Could you clarify the bold statements for me. Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but it seems that in the first paragraph, you're saying that if the buzzer goes off, they have the right to check your bags, but in the next, you're saying that they don't. Obviously they're going to need your slip to show what you purchased matches whats in the bag, so I'm a bit confused as to what you're saying here. I could go thru the line with 3 rubbermaid storage containers (the large kind) stacked inside of each other, with 20 dvds lined on the bottom of one of them. The buzzer will no doubt go off, so while it will seem as if I paid for the containers, fact is, I didn't pay for the other items.

Sorry if I was unclear, my bad.

When you buy an item in a store and pay for it, it is your property at that moment. The store has no right to detain you, demand that you prove you own it, or to search your person or property - without probable cause.

In some states, the security buzzer going off constitutes 'probable cause' and then the rules change about what they can legally do.

Just standing at the door and demanding to see your receipt - without the buzzer going off - is not probable cause, and they can't enforce it - they can only make you THINK they can enforce it, which is what they generally do.

As far as the last few lines go...this reminds me of a video clip that was posted on here quite some time ago, about a random mv spot check, which IIRC, was at a boarder. It seemed that the person in the car was taping the stop and pretty much being an *** to the cop, repeatedly asking what grounds she had for stopping him.

Didn't see the video, but it doesn't seem smart to do that to a cop. The legality of roadblocks has been long established.

Now, people are free to think what they want, but for myself, I'm all for doing what I can to avoid a headache. So if someone asks to look into my bag, and I have nothing to hide, what is it costing me to let them look?

I can tell you what it is costing ME to let them look. Your mileage may vary! ;-)

One more depredation of my civil liberties. Small, to be sure. But one more. And nobody ever stops at one.

One more acknowledgment that my 'rights' aren't really 'rights' after all. In fact, if I demand that they be respected, I'm being rude, uncooperative, and a general pain in the ***. The lesson? Rights don't matter as much as being polite and going along with the program. Rights don't matter as much as saving time when I'm late for work.

One more beat-down of the part of my spirit that believes we live in a free country, and that the Fourth Amendment means something literal, not just theoretical.

10 sec of my time? I'd be willing to bet, were this taking place in say an airport, train station, etc., and a LEO stopped you to do a random check, that you'd probably find yourself in a heap of trouble if you didn't let them look in your bags.

I follow the law. If the law says I have to submit to inspection, I do. If the law does not require me to do so, I don't. When it comes to voluntarily surrendering my rights, my motto is a cheerful 'non servium'.

I know it sounds corny, but I belong to that segment of our society that believes the most patriotic thing I could possibly do is to insist that my rights are observed, every jot and tittle, in all things great and small.

I'm a patriot. I've given six years of my life to military service and a decade to law enforcement, and I believe I have 'given back' to my country and my fellow man. But my oaths were not to the President, the Congress, or a flag, a political party or a religion. My honor-bound duty was and is to the Constitution and everything it stands for. It is that amazing document that I love, that I believe makes the USA great, that sets us apart in the history of the world from all other nations, and my fealty is to that alone.

My opinion is that societies seldom lose their rights overnight. It happens a little at a time, over a long course of time, generally because a complacent citizenry finds it too time-consuming, boring, pointless, and, well, rude to stand up for their rights in the face of the little daily depredations that go on around us. I firmly believe that our nation can never be destroyed, unless first our rights are destroyed. And I don't believe that our rights could ever be taken from us by force - but I do believe we'd give them up, one by one, day by day, in the tiniest of ways, ways that seem insignificant, to make our lives a little (seemingly) safer, or more convenient. Americans won't ever be made into slaves unless they kneel first. The bended knee is not one of my traditions.

 

[MJS]

Sorry if I was unclear, my bad.

When you buy an item in a store and pay for it, it is your property at that moment. The store has no right to detain you, demand that you prove you own it, or to search your person or property - without probable cause.

In some states, the security buzzer going off constitutes 'probable cause' and then the rules change about what they can legally do.

Just standing at the door and demanding to see your receipt - without the buzzer going off - is not probable cause, and they can't enforce it - they can only make you THINK they can enforce it, which is what they generally do.

Didn't see the video, but it doesn't seem smart to do that to a cop. The legality of roadblocks has been long established.

I can tell you what it is costing ME to let them look. Your mileage may vary! ;-)

One more depredation of my civil liberties. Small, to be sure. But one more. And nobody ever stops at one.

One more acknowledgment that my 'rights' aren't really 'rights' after all. In fact, if I demand that they be respected, I'm being rude, uncooperative, and a general pain in the ***. The lesson? Rights don't matter as much as being polite and going along with the program. Rights don't matter as much as saving time when I'm late for work.

One more beat-down of the part of my spirit that believes we live in a free country, and that the Fourth Amendment means something literal, not just theoretical.

I follow the law. If the law says I have to submit to inspection, I do. If the law does not require me to do so, I don't. When it comes to voluntarily surrendering my rights, my motto is a cheerful 'non servium'.

I know it sounds corny, but I belong to that segment of our society that believes the most patriotic thing I could possibly do is to insist that my rights are observed, every jot and tittle, in all things great and small.

I'm a patriot. I've given six years of my life to military service and a decade to law enforcement, and I believe I have 'given back' to my country and my fellow man. But my oaths were not to the President, the Congress, or a flag, a political party or a religion. My honor-bound duty was and is to the Constitution and everything it stands for. It is that amazing document that I love, that I believe makes the USA great, that sets us apart in the history of the world from all other nations, and my fealty is to that alone.

My opinion is that societies seldom lose their rights overnight. It happens a little at a time, over a long course of time, generally because a complacent citizenry finds it too time-consuming, boring, pointless, and, well, rude to stand up for their rights in the face of the little daily depredations that go on around us. I firmly believe that our nation can never be destroyed, unless first our rights are destroyed. And I don't believe that our rights could ever be taken from us by force - but I do believe we'd give them up, one by one, day by day, in the tiniest of ways, ways that seem insignificant, to make our lives a little (seemingly) safer, or more convenient. Americans won't ever be made into slaves unless they kneel first. The bended knee is not one of my traditions.

Thanks for the clarification Bill. To comment on a few things...

Regarding the checking of the receipt: Many of the wholesale stores, such as Sams Club and BJs have someone at the exit. They take your slip, do a quick scan and send you on your way. In your opinion, do you feel this is acceptable or should they just let you leave?

Regarding the video clip I mentioned: It was an interesting clip. I could probably find it if I dug a little. I agree though...in cases like that, I think the people should just shut the hell up and cooperate, but thats just me.

Regarding our rights...I pretty much agree with what you're saying. Of course, in certain cases, there are probably excpetions to the rule. Sometimes, we may just have to swallow our pride and deal with the rules.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Regarding the checking of the receipt: Many of the wholesale stores, such as Sams Club and BJs have someone at the exit. They take your slip, do a quick scan and send you on your way. In your opinion, do you feel this is acceptable or should they just let you leave?

You may have missed my comments regarding wholesale stores like Sam's and BJ's. When you join them, you agree in writing to allow yourself to be searched. So that gives them the right to do it. It's in the agreement you signed.

However, let's take a different retailer, like Fry's or Best Buy. They do the same thing, but there is no preexisting agreement between customer and retailer.

To answer your question - they do their thing and I do mine. I don't care if they station people at the exits and 'ask' for your receipt. Well, actually, I do wish they would not do it, but they certainly can do it if that's their policy. Should they actually physically stop me? No.

Regarding our rights...I pretty much agree with what you're saying. Of course, in certain cases, there are probably excpetions to the rule. Sometimes, we may just have to swallow our pride and deal with the rules.

My old man said that I was one who never knew how to pick his battles. I get that - it's a flaw. I realize that I can't fight every battle. I like to think I've learned to let some little things go.

In the case of the great 'let me see your receipt' debacle - really, it's not some major issue. They ask to see my receipt, I say no thank you and keep steppin'. They sometimes shout stuff after me. That's pretty much it. Been doing it for years. And I actually think things have changed somewhat - I seldom get the yelling anymore.

 

[Cryozombie]

My response to them if they fail to deactivate the sensor and ask me to step back inside, or try and detain me to check my receipt is "I'm sorry Im in a hurry, if you wish to detain me place me under arrest and call the police" as I continue to walk. The simple fact is they CANNOT hold you, stop you, or search your property without doing so, at least here. That much was drilled into us when I was a retail manager and we were trained on detaining potential shoplifters. EVEN if the alarm is tripped, the only way we could detain someone is if we saw them select the item, saw them conceal the item, and never lost sight of them so they could not have put the item down. Just setting off our alarm wasn't enough... we could attempt to stop someone who did that, but if they didn't want to be stopped, we couldn't do anything.

 

[Cryozombie]

Would I be evil if I scattered active security tags, sticky side up, in the cross walk leading into the store or mall?

May or may not work. Most of those sticky tags can be defeated by squeezing them, so the pressure on the tags from walking might render them useless. I used to stick them under the collars of my friend's coats tho. That was always good for a laugh.

 

[Bill Mattocks]

That much was drilled into us when I was a retail manager and we were trained on detaining potential shoplifters. EVEN if the alarm is tripped, the only way we could detain someone is if we saw them select the item, saw them conceal the item, and never lost sight of them so they could not have put the item down. Just setting off our alarm wasn't enough... we could attempt to stop someone who did that, but if they didn't want to be stopped, we couldn't do anything.

That's true, many stores teach their employees exactly that, to avoid liability for lawsuits brought by outraged customers. In addition, you probably know that most stores teach their employees that only designated security personnel can follow or detain a suspected shoplifter, because they receive special training in how to legally do so, which general employees do not.

However, it must be noted that in some states, setting off the alarm constitutes 'probable cause' and the store can detain customers in those circumstances - and might. You have to be sure what the law is in the state you're in.

 

[Archangel M]

Just as a point of fact. The Fourth Amendment only applies to governmental entities. It does not guarantee a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by private citizens or organizations.* Even if a WalMart door greeter seraches your stuff, its not a 4th Amendment violation. If a store security "illegally searches" you and finds evidence of a crime, he can call the police and we CAN use it.

*United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109 (1984): "This Court has ... consistently construed this protection as proscribing only governmental action; it is wholly inapplicable to a search or seizure, even an unreasonable one, effected by a private individual not acting as an agent of the Government or with the participation or knowledge of any governmental official."

 

[Bill Mattocks]

Just as a point of fact. The Fourth Amendment only applies to governmental entities. It does not guarantee a right to be free from unreasonable searches and seizures conducted by private citizens or organizations.* Even if a WalMart door greeter seraches your stuff, its not a 4th Amendment violation. If a store security "illegally searches" you and finds evidence of a crime, he can call the police and we CAN use it.

*United States v. Jacobsen, 466 U.S. 109 (1984): "This Court has ... consistently construed this protection as proscribing only governmental action; it is wholly inapplicable to a search or seizure, even an unreasonable one, effected by a private individual not acting as an agent of the Government or with the participation or knowledge of any governmental official."

You are correct that the Fourth is a stricture on the government, but tort law applies a similar correction to private entities that conduct 'unreasonable' searches and seizures. Let's say they decide they think you stole something, but did not witness you steal it.

They put the habeus grabbus on you, hold you against your will, and while waiting for the police to arrive, search you and your property. If they find nothing, they've got problems. Civil at the minimum, and probably criminal as well, though the aggrieved party might have to go through the city attorney to get charges filed.

If there is no probable cause to hold, there is no probable cause to search, and there would be no problem obtaining damages in a civil suit - in fact, it would most likely be settled quickly by the store's insurance.

That is why stores generally train their security guards, as I said, to only stop people whom they have seen take something and at least attempt to conceal it. They don't have to actually leave the store, just hiding it is sufficient. They must keep the person under surveillance at all times until they detain them. That's not a law or anything, that's just common store policy - very common.

Getting back to the original point - if no security buzzer goes off, and the security people simply demand to see a receipt and/or search your bag, and you decline and are detained/searched on that basis - there is no PC, and frankly, they're about to write a big check to the person they just screwed with.

As far as grabbing the cart and holding it, refusing to let the person take their property and leave - again, without PC, and depending on jurisdiction, it's conversion, and that is a crime that can be prosecuted.

I know a lot of cops think store owners can pretty much do what they want to customers - they can't. The rules of probable cause apply to them just like anyone else.