Using Nails in a Fight, Effective of Ineffective?

Discussion in 'General Self Defense' started by Kane, Feb 14, 2005.

  1. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    In a true "fight" you could have bones broken and never even know it until its over. Id never rely on "pain compliance" techniques in self defense situations. Those work in LEO situations where you have to "persuade" "maybe people" into doing what you want. Rarely of practical use in civilian SD.....

    That's why you don't break bones for pain, you break bones to disable. A guy may not feel a broken knee or broken leg, but he can't walk either. A guy may not feel a broken arm, but he won't be able to grab you with it, regardless.
     
  2. DarrenJew

    DarrenJew Orange Belt

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    Certainly not! You are correct, a martial arts taken as a self defense is just as honorable as any other reason for learning a martial art. Also overtime your purpose for learning can change aswell.
     
  3. kenpo tiger

    kenpo tiger Senior Master

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    I've never had any problem making a fist -- ask my kenpo brothers:).

    As to keeping your nails from bending backward, white tape usually works well. Also works if you're concerned about hurting your workout partners.
     
  4. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    I believe that someone with long nails can defend themselves; even if they couldn't make a good fist, palm strikes and and other techniques work great. It's just the whole "I'm gonna scratch yea! (meow :rolleyes: )" business that I am questioning.

    After one gets past the most basic level in my "art" (and this goes for many arts) one is beyond self-defense and may be working on attributes and abilities beyond or outside of what you'll need for defense. An example is in Balintawak, the traditional Filipino art that I focus on for my own training. Balintawak is not for "self-defense," it is for "eskrimadors" or people who wish to become good "stick duelers." Almost the entire art is stick dueling against another stick player. Obviously for self-defense, I most likely won't be "dueling" someone else with a stick. But, like Japanese swordsmanship, stick dueling is wonderful for developing skills and attributes.

    What is great about the martial arts is there are a lot of reasons outside of "self-defense" to take them. These are all great.

    We just need to be able to recognize what is viable for self-defense in our arts, because they are not always one in the same...

    Paul
     
  5. Makalakumu

    Makalakumu Gonzo Karate Apocalypse

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    While I agree that many arts have a certain amount of esoteria or exoteria that is not directly related to self defense, I would have to insist that this is not universal.

    I trained with the Minnesota Kali Group which does Inosanto JKD for three years and, because of my previous training, advanced rather quickly. Pretty much everything I learned was directly applicable to self defense.

    The self defense focus did not make MKG any less artistic.
     
  6. kenpo tiger

    kenpo tiger Senior Master

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    True. Most arts incorporate self defense in one form or another, and being able to meld them can only make the martial artist a better one.

    The scratching Paul refers to is only suggested as part of getting away. It isn't 'taught' as self defense, but as part of distraction in order to escape and for possibly identifying the attacker, should he be caught. Nowhere was it suggested that scratching is a viable tool for fighting.
    And, even though I have had long nails throughout my martial arts career, I do agree that keeping them short[er] has its advantages, especially in grappling and techniques which require grabbing your opponent in order to bring him to the ground.
     
  7. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    Something to think about, then a question... :asian:

    #1. Something to think about - WHEN to get away:

    If someone is prepared to hurt you (and this is especially true for women) they are prepared for you to struggle to try to get away. If they are in the process of physically attacking you, in a real circumstance you are probably not going to have the opportunity to escape; so you have to get their attention off attacking you to create that opportunity. Most will agree on this.

    Now here is where it gets hairy, and where my views may differ from some. This is on the issue of "distraction." Some feel that distraction is a viable tactic when someone is in process of attacking you. This covers everything from scratching to slapping to throwing something in their face to yelling and pointing "look over there," and so on.

    I think that distraction is a viable tactic when done at the right TIME. For example, throwing my briefcase at an approaching person who I have reason believe is going to assault me to run is a viable tactic. Or, if someone is approaching me with a knife and saying "give me your money" I can yell, "Take it!" and throw my wallet on the ground while I turn and run. We can name countless examples when done at the right TIME, distraction can be a viable tactic.

    Yet, there are times when distraction is NOT a viable tactic. I would assess that this time would be when the attacker is in the process of actually attacking you. If he is in the process of trying to overwhelm and hurt you with kicks and punches, or trying to overpower you and pull you to the ground, you will not be able to distract him from this act at this point. Like pain compliance, a common misconception is that you can distract this guy and he will break his action of hurting or manhandling you to offer that opportunity for escape.

    Time and time again, it has been proven that pain complaince by itself will not stop a determined threat. We all know that pain is a motivator, yet if pain isn't going to break the action of a determined threat, then in no way can we expect a distraction to break the attackers action. Something more drastic is needed. The best thing that one can do if being attacked is to shift the assailents mindset from attacking you to defending himself. At that moment, his action can be broken enough allowing one to execute an escape.

    The most effective way to shift this mindset is to create trauma on the attacker quickly.

    Something to think about.

    #2. Question: I keep hearing about this idea that you might be able to identify an attacker through DNA from the fingernails of a victim who has successfully defended and escaped. I do see how this might be viable. Yet, I see a lot of potential problems with this as well, making me think that this may be just another one of self-defense urban legends.

    So, does anyone (particularly those who keep suggesting the idea) have any actual evidence or statistics of this tactic working?

    Paul
     
  8. 8253

    8253 Guest

    Anything can be effective in a fight. If i were to come under attack i will hit them with anything i can to keep from getting hurt. However i prefer to avoid the fight in the first place, I believe that violence can be averted with words.
     
  9. KenpoTex

    KenpoTex Senior Master

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    Paul raised some great points in his last post that I'd like to discuss further.
    Exactly, and they're probably going to expect most women (especially those with no training) to rely on things like scratching and biting which, while painful, may not (and probably won't dissuade them). This is where the ability to respond with something that will actually do some damage comes in to play.
    I agree, the example given: tossing a wallet if you think that's all they want is a good one. But as always, don't ASSume that it will be enough.
    I think this ties in with the whole "Stun 'n' Run" concept which basically says "hit 'em in the nose (distract) and run" or something to that effect. This can be a good tactic sometimes but on the other hand, someone who has selected you as prey for a violent crime (robbery, assault, rape or whatever) is probably not adverse to using violence to achieve their goal. As a result, if you don't hit 'em like you mean it, you may just piss them off (and strengthen their determination to do all manner of nasty stuff to you). So you slap/claw/kick them and take off running you may get a bullet in the back for your trouble. For that matter, how do you know you can outrun them anyway? Then there's the whole issue of attackers that are on some sort of drug that raises their pain threshold.
    I realize that I'm getting a little off topic but I have issues with the whole distraction/stun philosophy regardless of whether people take this view out of some desire to be nonviolent and/or minimize the damage to the scumbag that's attacking them (a mindset I neither understand nor encourage); or from a fear of legal repercussions in the aftermath (somthing that is important, but not so much so as surviving). Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you should use excessive force or try to play Rambo just to keep your ego intact when you could get away, just that I would prefer to err on the side of caution. Instead of "Stun/distract and Run," how about "K.O. and walk away."

    Okay, I'll shut up and stop rambling now...
     
  10. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    The KO aint all that easy or assured. Running isnt so much an "outrun the attacker" issue as it is "the plan didnt work, shes raising the alarm I better beat it" thing. Rarely is a target of opportunity attacker going to persue you if you manage to get a few running steps on him. The plan is to overwhelm immediately.....
     
  11. KenpoTex

    KenpoTex Senior Master

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    Good points. When I said KO, I didn't necessarily mean it literally. What I meant was, do something that's going to either impair their ability to continue the assault, or cause them some real pain e.g. 2" of your finger in their eye, a hard strike to the throat, etc.
    As far as running away, you make a good point but I submit that it's probably easier to get those "few running steps" if you've done some damage.
    That works both ways. :D
     
  12. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    Absolutely. If the guy is within grabbing range you will pretty much have to hit him with something to make your escape.
     
  13. masherdong

    masherdong 2nd Black Belt

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    Hey, in a street fight, anything goes. Use nails, teeth, anything you can use, use it! Street fighting has no rules. Just do what you got to do.
     
  14. Flamebearer

    Flamebearer Green Belt

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    I believe that when police find a raped body they scrape under the nails to see if there is any of the attacker's DNA/skin cells.

    Nails applied to nerve points do wonders.:ultracool

    -Flamebearer
     
  15. Tgace

    Tgace Grandmaster

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    Do you see the problem part of that?
     
  16. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    Hey, in a street fight, anything goes. Use nails, teeth, anything you can use, use it! Street fighting has no rules. Just do what you got to do.

    It matters in how you prepare, though. I wouldn't use nails because I keep them short to get better punches. If I preferred nails over punches, I woud grow my nails and not punch.

    I think 'anything goes' but I think you need to consider ahead of time what tactics you are likely to use and prepare accordingly; loose pants and light footwear if you favor kicking; that kinda thing.
     
  17. 47MartialMan

    47MartialMan Master of Arts

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    I can state that Tulisan had "nailed" it.However, many females in our self defense classes are not required to cut their nails. Their passion for this beautification.

    We have taught them that they need not sacrafice their nails to make a fist. We have a alternate way for them to do this and we have them test it the heavy bags, mohk yahn Jjng, and the makiwara.

    More than one time in time, a student had actually use these "special fists" in a defense situation.

    However, all is fair in love and war. Use something other than your hands/nails.
     
  18. Cruentus

    Cruentus Grandmaster

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    :rofl: dude..that was hilarious...
     
  19. FearlessFreep

    FearlessFreep Senior Master

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    We have a alternate way for them to do this and we have them test it the heavy bags, mohk yahn Jjng, and the makiwara.

    I'd be interested in that; I prefer longer nails on my right hand for musical playing,but have sacrificed them for tight fists
     
  20. KenpoTex

    KenpoTex Senior Master

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    :roflmao::roflmao::roflmao:123
     

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