Understanding Wing Chun's Centre Line

[Kung Fu Wang]

If it protected my centerline, then no. But, that seems very strange to use a right fook sau vs right hook. I would never use that. Your (Yip Man's) choice would be chasing hands in my opinion.

In one Hong Kong tournament, a CLF guy threw a right hook punch at a WC guy. The WC guy used left Tan Shou to block it. The right hook knocked down the left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. The WC student went back and asked Ip Men. That was Ip Men's answer to him.

This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Sure. History also shows that punching punches out of the air pretty much never happens.

That's called metal strategy - to use knife to cut through wood. The purpose is to hurt your opponent's arm.

 

[wckf92]

In one Hong Kong tournament, a CLF guy threw a right hook punch at a WC guy. The WC guy used left Tan Shou to block it. The right hook knocked down the left Tan Shou and still hit on the WC guy's head. The WC student went back and asked Ip Men. That was Ip Men's answer to him.

This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"

Hmmm...interesting. I would say it is not the fault of the Tan Sau...but of the practitioner.

 

[Flying Crane]

Hmmm...interesting. I would say it is not the fault of the Tan Sau...but of the practitioner.

That is usually the case. To think there is a specific answer to a specific attack is erroneous. It depends on circumstances and the skill of the person. There could be many good solutions and many bad ones and which is which could also depend on the person.

This isn’t an input-output box.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

It depends on circumstances and the skill of the person. There could be many good solutions and many bad ones and which is which could also depend on the person.

If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?

I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.

I have tested this over and over myself. My testing result strongly support my conclusion - One may think he can use his left arm to stop a full body rotation right hook punch, the reality is he can't.

 

[wckf92]

If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?

I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.

I have tested this over and over myself. My testing result strongly support my conclusion - One may think he can use his left arm to stop a full body rotation right hook punch, the reality is he can't.

View attachment 28211

I have never had any issues with Tan sau being able to withstand heavy hooks. So my results obviously differ from your results. So perhaps it is the individual?

 

[Flying Crane]

If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?

I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.

I have tested this over and over myself. My testing result strongly support my conclusion - One may think he can use his left arm to stop a full body rotation right hook punch, the reality is he can't.

View attachment 28211

I think it depends. How powerful are A and B? How good are they at what they do? Are they really on their game today, or are they having trouble pulling it together? Didn’t eat breakfast today? Didn’t sleep well last night? I think it’s impossible to say fully yes or no. Your test results may be reliable for you. Your data is valid and can be used by others to help them evaluate. But I really think it depends.

 

[Martial D]

That's called metal strategy - to use knife to cut through wood. The purpose is to hurt your opponent's arm.

I get why you would do it if it worked. If you had some magic power that put the other guy into slow motion while you still moved at full speed it would definitely be worth exploring.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

I get why you would do it if it worked. If you had some magic power that put the other guy into slow motion while you still moved at full speed it would definitely be worth exploring.

Have you ever accidently roundhouse kick and hit on your opponent's sharp elbow joint? I have. It was not pleasant.

 

[Dirty Dog]

Have you ever accidently roundhouse kick and hit on your opponent's sharp elbow joint? I have. It was not pleasant.

Of course. And sometimes that really sucks for the kicker. On the other hand, sometimes it really sucks for the kickee.

 

[Martial D]

Have you ever accidently roundhouse kick and hit on your opponent's sharp elbow joint? I have. It was not pleasant.

Well yes. Many times.

But I'm not sure how that relates to the feasibility of punching punches out of the air.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt to have your arm punched while you are punching. I'm sure it would. It's not something I've ever experienced or seen happen though.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Well yes. Many times.

But I'm not sure how that relates to the feasibility of punching punches out of the air.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt to have your arm punched while you are punching. I'm sure it would. It's not something I've ever experienced or seen happen though.

When 2 arms hit against each other, whoever has tough arm will win. In order to apply the metal strategy, some serious training will be needed. Nothing will come for free.

 

[geezer]

Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.

I like that!

Of course if you don't know where "center" is ...how can you effectively off-line and get that angle?

 

[geezer]

Well yes. Many times.

But I'm not sure how that relates to the feasibility of punching punches out of the air.

I'm not saying it wouldn't hurt to have your arm punched while you are punching. I'm sure it would. It's not something I've ever experienced or seen happen though.

Punching at your opponent's punches??? Well, wouldn't most fighters avoid that?

1. If you have boxing gloves on, you couldn't depend on significantly damaging your opponent's fist or arm, so better to focus on the main targets, right?

2. or, if you don't have gloves on: 1. You might connect fist to fist or fist to elbow ...and that's risking breaking your hand.

3. Also, while you're targeting hands and arms which are small, fast targets, the other guy is targeting bigger, higher percentage targets close to the center of mass. That's why in WC we say "Don't chase hands!" Works for boxers and shooters too.


Now in self-defense oriented arts like Eskrima where you might be holding a fist-load, palm-stick, a small metal flashlight, or even a cell phone, not to mention knives, etc. the equation changes completely.

If I have something like a hard, heavy palm-stick, I would definitely try to hit my opponent's hands on the way in.

 

[geezer]

If A uses boxing guard (or left WC Tan Shou), do you think B's right hook punch can knock down A's left arm and still hit on A's head?
I just don't think A's body structure is strong enough to handle that heavy swing.
I have tested this over and over myself. My testing result strongly support my conclusion - One may think he can use his left arm to stop a full body rotation right hook punch, the reality is he can't.

John, I really don't know any good WC/WT/ VT people who advocate wading into a strong hook punch and believe that tan-da sau will automatically take care of everything!

In WC boxing, like all boxing, distance, position, timing ...and yes, even dodging are all part of the reality of a fight.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.

This is me all day. I'm more than happy to be off the center line. I don't try to defend it like Wing Chun does.

 

[JowGaWolf]

All I'm trying to say is the WC centerline principle should include "linear vs non-linear".

I agree with everything but the Wing Chun part lol. I'm more than happy for them to stay linear.

 

[JowGaWolf]

This isn’t an input-output box.

Depends on the approach. There are somethings you can do that will trigger an expected movement in your opponent that you can capitalize on. It's pretty consistent and reliable.

 

[JowGaWolf]

When 2 arms hit against each other, whoever has tough arm will win. In order to apply the metal strategy, some serious training will be needed. Nothing will come for free.

I would hate to train on that tree. Too rough for me lol. I need smooth bark.

 

[Flying Crane]

Depends on the approach. There are somethings you can do that will trigger an expected movement in your opponent that you can capitalize on. It's pretty consistent and reliable.

Sometimes, and it depends. I wouldn’t bet my life on it.