Understanding Wing Chun's Centre Line

[Oily Dragon]

This is me all day. I'm more than happy to be off the center line. I don't try to defend it like Wing Chun does.

Who are we to speak for all Wing Chun?

You said before, you've never even trained it. But based on your training, that's not entirely accurate.

I think you know a little Wing Chun, but don't know it.

 

[Oily Dragon]

This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"

Aside from dodging, which is a pretty effective defensive tactic, Wing Chun contains a number of different, relatively orthodox boxing guards that cover the sides of the head.

Crane and Dragon styles are well known for this sort of thing, covering the head. In the literature it's often referred to as a Crane's wing or a Dragon's limb, often accompanied by howling techniques, and fierce elbow strikes.

 

[JowGaWolf]

Who are we to speak for all Wing Chun?

You said before, you've never even trained it. But based on your training, that's not entirely accurate.

I think you know a little Wing Chun, but don't know it.

Me know Wing Chun ewww. Ha ha.

 

[drop bear]

Who are we to speak for all Wing Chun?

You said before, you've never even trained it. But based on your training, that's not entirely accurate.

I think you know a little Wing Chun, but don't know it.

I don't think you need to speak for wing change to discuss centerline theory.

I mean it is either a concept that works or it is one that doesn't.

 

[Oily Dragon]

I don't think you need to speak for wing change to discuss centerline theory.

I mean it is either a concept that works or it is one that doesn't.

Hung Kuen has, maybe seven center lines, Bagua has eight. Wing Chun has one. But really, there are no center lines. That's the big secret. Lines are important when learning how to do something, once it comes time to use it, hopefully you're not thinking geometry. That's what "it hits all by itself means.

When Anderson Silva KO'd Tito Ortiz in boxing, he credited Wing Chun. Of course, Tito had just just offended both Bruce Lee AND the Shaolin, so he had it coming.

Tito Ortiz ready to deal with Anderson Silva’s ‘Wing Chun, Bruce Lee bullsh*t’

Tito Ortiz will be competing 10 pounds lighter than he did in his UFC career when he boxes Anderson Silva at Triller Fight Club this Saturday in Hollywood, Fla.

www.mmafighting.com

 

[Oily Dragon]

Me know Wing Chun ewww. Ha ha.

What I meant was a senior Jow Ga trainee probably knows 98% of what's in Wing Chun, even if they don't realize it.

Now think of the opposite, imagine a Wing Chun trainee who spends some time in Gong Ji Bo. Limitless new possibilities.

Here's n center line observation about Wing Chun, ever notice what's common between the Snake and Crane styles? The Crane has two weak legs, the snake is basically one long leg. This makes both vulnerable to grappling animal styles like Tiger and Dragon.

We've all seen that, the single leg demolishing Snake-Crane fighters who forgot (or more likely never learned) their Dragon.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Especially for me who quite often wants to be off center.

If I attack your

- center (front door), I may have to deal with both of your arms (because both of your arms can reach me).
- blind side (side door), I only have to deal with one of your arms (because your back arm is jammed by your leading arm).

I like to attack the

- center (front door) for kicking.
- blind side (side door) for punching.

My circle running footwork is mainly to reach to my opponent's side door (or back door).

 

[Callen]

This is why I was interested in the question, "Besides dodging, what's a WC guy's solution to deal with a hook punch?"

Fair question. Standing in one place with a "blocking" mentality will eventually get you hit. A lot of folks think they can just throw out a taan and all the work is done for them. Like most striking systems, Wing Chun requires controlling the distance, utilizing timing, angling for position, etc...

 

[Callen]

But really, there are no center lines. That's the big secret. Lines are important when learning how to do something, once it comes time to use it, hopefully you're not thinking geometry. That's what "it hits all by itself means.

Yep, exactly.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Standing in one place with a "blocking" mentality will eventually get you hit.

The term "blocking" may not be the right word. I prefer to call it "limb hits limb" instead.

In theory, when 2 limbs hit on each other, whoever has the toughest limb will win. The attacker doesn't have any advantage.

For example, the contact force should be felt by both,

- when your opponent throws a body rotation hook punch at you, if you also throw a body rotation hook punch back at him.
- when you opponent throws a low roundhouse kick at you, if you turn your shin bone into his kick.

Of course, the smart strategy should be to use the strong part of your limb to hit on the weak part of your opponent's limb.

 

[Callen]

Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun?

“Centerline” can be many things, and I also agree with what others have said about it being way over-thought. IMO, it comes down to how the mechanics of the system are understood. Like so many things, centerline is a training tool.

In my training for example, the emphasis is on chasing the opponent’s center. Our own centerline is really just a guide for the direct path of the elbow + punch. Proper elbow placement to allow firing-off the vertical punch, nothing more. Develop the punch through proper mechanics, and our own “centerline” is naturally developed as well. We then use those same elbow principles for all Wing Chun actions.

So when we talk about recovering or protecting our centerline, etc… It is about making sure we are in a good position to hit with a vertical fist. In this way of thinking our own centerline does not exist, it is dissolved into the mechanics, leaving the target as the focus. If the way is clear, hit.

Through my observation, when people put the idea of “centerline” (expected, idealistic results) ahead of prioritizing the development of mechanics, they will have an incomplete understanding of the system.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun?

To me, the centerline principle can be as simple as, "If I put my arms in my centerline, all your linear punches will have to deal with my hands first." So, my centerline strategy will force my opponent to use non-linear punches. Since I only have to deal with non-linear punches, this will simplify the fight down to 50%.

 

[wckf92]

One more thing I'd like to say about centerline. There are many in the WC community that worship it like a religion and will not violate it. In my opinion this is too rigid of a mindset.
It is OK to cross your centerline (with the right training and behavioral conditioning which we get from the system).
Some may read that and think "blasphemy"! And I'm ok with that. But IME wc hands work together in a cycle/recycle method; AND there may come a time when you will need to "seal out/off" your centerline from near-to-far because your timing was off...or maybe because the bad guy did something unexpected or with better timing/speed etc.
To summarize: IMO your centerline is not some rigid wall that cannot be violated or crossed. It is an idea...and a dynamic one at that.
~ End rant.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Do you know or use any other ways to understand it and apply to Wing Chun?

When you switch sides, your centerline will expose for a small amount of time. Your opponent can attack through your centerline right at that moment. This is why to switch sides in the middle of a fight is not a good idea.

 

[Wing Woo Gar]

What I meant was a senior Jow Ga trainee probably knows 98% of what's in Wing Chun, even if they don't realize it.

Now think of the opposite, imagine a Wing Chun trainee who spends some time in Gong Ji Bo. Limitless new possibilities.

Here's n center line observation about Wing Chun, ever notice what's common between the Snake and Crane styles? The Crane has two weak legs, the snake is basically one long leg. This makes both vulnerable to grappling animal styles like Tiger and Dragon.

We've all seen that, the single leg demolishing Snake-Crane fighters who forgot (or more likely never learned) their Dragon.

Forgive me, I don’t speak any Chinese. Gongji bo? Is that rooster staff? LOL! Or Cock attack? Lmao I know I’m butchering this but I’m cracking myself up.

 

[Kung Fu Wang]

Here are 2 examples that one attacks through the centerline.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Forgive me, I don’t speak any Chinese. Gongji bo? Is that rooster staff? LOL! Or Cock attack? Lmao I know I’m butchering this but I’m cracking myself up.

It's one Chinese name for one of the most common stances in all combat sport. It's the most common Jow Ga name, another name is Gi Ng Ma, named after positions on the sundial.

It's not in the Wing Chun forms, but it probably should be. I think anyone who learns Wing Chun should already train it, but I'm just a dreamer.

 

[wckf92]

It's one Chinese name for one of the most common stances in all combat sport. It's the most common Jow Ga name, another name is Gi Ng Ma, named after positions on the sundial.

It's not in the Wing Chun forms, but it probably should be. I think anyone who learns Wing Chun should already train it, but I'm just a dreamer.

Can you post a pic of the stance please?

 

[Oily Dragon]

Can you post a pic of the stance please?

It's the classic lead foot forward, strong leg back stance used in boxing and grappling. 子午馬 (or 前弓後箭馬)

In arts like Jow Ga, Hung Ga, the stance is practiced for strenght as an elongated static pose, or as a transition with level changes later on. In sparring, it's not done nearly as low, so you stay nice a loose and ready to pounce.

Once the legs are nice and strong, it becomes second nature. Most common defensive stances in MMA stances are Ji Ng Ma (most other common Kung Fu stances like 4 parallel Horse or Goat Riding Horse are not for fighting). The classic Muay Thai stance is a higher Ji Ng Ma/empty leg hybrid that usually favors forward facing hips, compared to the orthodox boxing stance, with the center of mass lower and hips somewhat the the side, compared to the Chinese Sanshou stances, which tend ever lower, but no so much as to lose mobility.

"Gong Gi Bo" means bow and arrow stance, "Ji Ng Ma" is a nod to "12 and 6" or "11 and 5 stance" as in 12/6, 11/5 on the sundial, where the front toe and back heel are generally aligned to produce a stable, rooted posture.

4 Most Used Stances In MMA

The foundations are the most crucial, and you cant get more foundational than stance. Your stance depends on what sort of fighter you are, a fighter like

lawofthefist.com

Hung Ga Tiger version.

Jow Ga version.

Yogic version.

Mantis version.

 

[Oily Dragon]

Cung Le spinning back kick setup version.