Ugly fight: LEO v Criminal
- Thread starter Hudson69
- Start date
That took guts ... maybe even a little stupidity ... but guts nonetheless.
I am disappointed that none of the citizens passing by helped the police officer. They could have even just called 911 and asked for officer in need of assistance; doesn't look like anyone did.
I hate to 2nd-guess the officer, but IMHO, he should have gone to weapons. It looks like he had a nightstick, should have used it.
I hate to 2nd-guess the officer, but IMHO, he should have gone to weapons. It looks like he had a nightstick, should have used it.
Bill, you would be surprized at the number of people that just stand around watching..When I and another officer were attempting to cuff and stuff this teen that was high on angel dust no one offered to do anything..Thankfully we managed to call for additional units when we realized that this guy wasnt gonna go with the program..
celtic_crippler
Senior Master
I would definately say that situation called for at least a tazer if not a solid nightstick across the knee caps.
Every time I see this video it makes me upset that no one offered assistance. 
It's upset and insulting that nobody tried to help.
But it pisses me off more that he didn't escalate. I respect Sgt. Colombo for staying in the fight -- but his job wasn't to fight fair or play nice. His job, once it was on, was to WIN! He's given tools and options to do just that. In the Gracie video Brian shared recently, one cop did a great job escalating to lethal force through a long fight. (In fact, here is a link to a video of the fight in question.) We don't have to fight fair -- we have to WIN. Rather than fight for several minutes (let's be real, few of us cops are in shape to do even one MMA round...), back out, escalate, and subdue the guy.
It is a nice video to see just how ugly a real fight is.
But it pisses me off more that he didn't escalate. I respect Sgt. Colombo for staying in the fight -- but his job wasn't to fight fair or play nice. His job, once it was on, was to WIN! He's given tools and options to do just that. In the Gracie video Brian shared recently, one cop did a great job escalating to lethal force through a long fight. (In fact, here is a link to a video of the fight in question.) We don't have to fight fair -- we have to WIN. Rather than fight for several minutes (let's be real, few of us cops are in shape to do even one MMA round...), back out, escalate, and subdue the guy.
It is a nice video to see just how ugly a real fight is.
These types of videos should be a wakeup call and teaching moment for law enforcement and citizen alike. This was in broad daylight, many people around, with help coming after a lot of time went by. It is hard to arm chair this from a computer chair, but we need to reference this and keep our eyes open, and be ever vigilant. (Get involved).
I wish there was a way to bring someone into the academy that was dusted or smoking the wet and let the cadets that think they know everything try and subdue and cuff them
.
The teen I mentioned in my previous post was maybe 110-120 lbs, yet he fought 3 of us, 2 heavyweight cops and one normal weight officer..He felt nothing and what was worse was he was trying to reach for my gun..Even when they pepper sprayed him full in the face he only stopped struggling for about 1/2 minute..We won and that's all I am going to say about the incident..
KenpoTex
Senior Master
I agree with those who said the officer should have escalated. He was too focused on "control and restrain." Early in the video, he tried to cuff the guy before he had really gained control. Then when the guy started actively fighting (attacking the officer instead of just resisting), he didn't increase his use of force.
An "ASP shampoo" would have been perfectly appropriate given the situation.
I commend those who finally jumped in to help the officer.
An "ASP shampoo" would have been perfectly appropriate given the situation.
I commend those who finally jumped in to help the officer.
Archangel M
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,555
- Reaction score
- 154
I know that not all officers have the option of back-up being close, but WHY do cops insist on going "hands on" when they are alone? Call for back up. Wait for back-up.
We had a guy who had some mental issues... He'd assaulted his brother, and I actually cuffed him without a problem. Until we tried to take him out of the apartment. It took four of us to get him out -- even though he was cuffed! The guy was about 5' 3 or 4. Maybe 140 lbs.
There's a lot of truth in the old saying that it ain't the size of dog in the fight -- it's the fight in the dog.
Every time I see this video it makes me upset that no one offered assistance.
I am too, but anyone that has driven through downtown Boston can attest that the city is not a place where a driver will necessarily pay attention to what is going on over on the sidewalk, let alone be a place where a driver stop on a whim. The streets are narrow, one way, and not parallel. Fuggedabout finding a place to pull over or park.
It upsets me that there are pedestrians going by without batting an eye and someone content with just standing and using their cell phone cam to film the confrontation, but I don't necessarily fault the motorists.
This will unfortunately bother some.
The proper response of a non-cop in a case like this is to contact cops and stand down.
Most civilians do not have the training to handle a situation such as this.
If you are injured or killed, you're on your own.
You might be mistaken as another attacker and injured or killed by arriving law enforcement.
If you injure the attacker, you can and likely will face significant legal challenge.
The city will most likely not help your defense.
If you accidentally strike the officer, you stand a high chance of being charged.
If the local PD is one of the attitude ones, you might save the cops life, but face an "interfering with cop" charge.
Let me repeat, most civilians are not trained to handle these type of situations, and can be injured, or killed, and face significant financial, medical and legal risk should they intervene.
Film it, call emergency services, stay on the line, inform them that a cop is engaged in a fight, be aware of where you are at and give an accurate location to speed up response time of properly equipped and trained responders.
If the officer goes down, get a detailed description of the person, his mode of escape, license plate, direction, etc and relay that to the dispatcher. Unless you are a trained medic, do not move the injured person, doing so may cause more injury.
"But Bob, I have to do something."
Yes, call 911, take notes, but unless you have training and are willing to accept the legal, financial and medical risks, stand down.
Tactically, a 1 on 1 fight feels fair. Add another body to that, and the perp may escalate. The cop now has to also worry about your safety in addition to yours. In the heat of battle he may mistake your attempt to help as being the attackers back up. Many well meaning people have been taken away muttering "I was just trying to help". Some in bags.
The proper response of a non-cop in a case like this is to contact cops and stand down.
Most civilians do not have the training to handle a situation such as this.
If you are injured or killed, you're on your own.
You might be mistaken as another attacker and injured or killed by arriving law enforcement.
If you injure the attacker, you can and likely will face significant legal challenge.
The city will most likely not help your defense.
If you accidentally strike the officer, you stand a high chance of being charged.
If the local PD is one of the attitude ones, you might save the cops life, but face an "interfering with cop" charge.
Let me repeat, most civilians are not trained to handle these type of situations, and can be injured, or killed, and face significant financial, medical and legal risk should they intervene.
Film it, call emergency services, stay on the line, inform them that a cop is engaged in a fight, be aware of where you are at and give an accurate location to speed up response time of properly equipped and trained responders.
If the officer goes down, get a detailed description of the person, his mode of escape, license plate, direction, etc and relay that to the dispatcher. Unless you are a trained medic, do not move the injured person, doing so may cause more injury.
"But Bob, I have to do something."
Yes, call 911, take notes, but unless you have training and are willing to accept the legal, financial and medical risks, stand down.
Tactically, a 1 on 1 fight feels fair. Add another body to that, and the perp may escalate. The cop now has to also worry about your safety in addition to yours. In the heat of battle he may mistake your attempt to help as being the attackers back up. Many well meaning people have been taken away muttering "I was just trying to help". Some in bags.
Archangel M
Senior Master
- Joined
- Dec 5, 2007
- Messages
- 4,555
- Reaction score
- 154
Name me a few. Good Samaritans trying to help cops killed or sued.
My dept has issued awards to quite a few of them.
ok.
Shot
Ticketed
Assaulted by Cop
Oh, the charges against her were eventually dropped.
Good Samaritan Loses Leg Helping An Off-Duty Mesa Police Officer
Mind you, that one could have happened to anyone.
Now, if you want me to flood this with links to Good Samaritans in general being injured, hurt, sued, etc, Google has a couple hundred thousand hits.
Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
Shot
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/2296237/posts
Ticketed
They eventually withdrew the ticket after public outcry
Assaulted by Cop
http://blog.nj.com/ledgerupdates/2007/07/good_samaritan_case_postponed.html
Oh, the charges against her were eventually dropped.
Good Samaritan Loses Leg Helping An Off-Duty Mesa Police Officer
Mind you, that one could have happened to anyone.
Now, if you want me to flood this with links to Good Samaritans in general being injured, hurt, sued, etc, Google has a couple hundred thousand hits.
Also, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Good_Samaritan_law
Now, let me put out a hypothetical here.
You're struggling with a guy. He's got a knife, you don't. You are barely holding your own. Ok, he's about to cut you. Bad.
Want me to hit him with a pipe?
What charge will your backup be using on me after I split your almost-killer's skull?
Same situation.
Your backup arrives just as I race in, pipe drawn to save you.
Who will they shoot?
Mind you, my instinct is to help you. My desire is to save you.
My ability to do so however is questionable, and I might cause you, and me, more harm than good.
You're struggling with a guy. He's got a knife, you don't. You are barely holding your own. Ok, he's about to cut you. Bad.
Want me to hit him with a pipe?
What charge will your backup be using on me after I split your almost-killer's skull?
Same situation.
Your backup arrives just as I race in, pipe drawn to save you.
Who will they shoot?
Mind you, my instinct is to help you. My desire is to save you.
My ability to do so however is questionable, and I might cause you, and me, more harm than good.
I posted about Boston Special Officer Paul Langone here:
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83591
October 27, he was out on personal buisness when he heard a series of screams from a behind a closed door at Mass. General Hospital. He opened the door to find a doctor literally being stabbed to death by her patient. Mr. Langone shot the patient, saving the doctor's life. The patient did not survive. He was hailed widely as a hero, he humbly insists that it is the surgeons that saved the doctor's life that were the real heros.
What did he get as thanks for his actions? He got props in the media, which is nice.
But he also was put on administrative leave from work, had the shooting go before a grand jury (I assume this involves paying attorneys, last time I checked attorneys were not cheap), and was threatend with a civil lawsuit by another attorney.
The grand jury did not clear him until January 11. He was still on administrative leave after the acquittal. He still faces a risk of a lawsuit, although he has a powerful ally (Sen. Scott Brown) that proposed changing the Good Samaritan laws in Massachusetts.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/22210555/detail.html
http://www.scottbrown.com/Press.htm
As far as I know, no one has stepped up to pay his legal fees.
http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=83591
October 27, he was out on personal buisness when he heard a series of screams from a behind a closed door at Mass. General Hospital. He opened the door to find a doctor literally being stabbed to death by her patient. Mr. Langone shot the patient, saving the doctor's life. The patient did not survive. He was hailed widely as a hero, he humbly insists that it is the surgeons that saved the doctor's life that were the real heros.
What did he get as thanks for his actions? He got props in the media, which is nice.
But he also was put on administrative leave from work, had the shooting go before a grand jury (I assume this involves paying attorneys, last time I checked attorneys were not cheap), and was threatend with a civil lawsuit by another attorney.
The grand jury did not clear him until January 11. He was still on administrative leave after the acquittal. He still faces a risk of a lawsuit, although he has a powerful ally (Sen. Scott Brown) that proposed changing the Good Samaritan laws in Massachusetts.
http://www.thebostonchannel.com/news/22210555/detail.html
http://www.scottbrown.com/Press.htm
As far as I know, no one has stepped up to pay his legal fees.
Good points well taken, Bob. Even in my CPR classes the first thing taught when coming upon someone down is to "call 911" then give assistance. With a 911 call of "office needs assistance" I can't imagine a slow response time. This 911 call would take precedence over all else.
Now, I'm not saying don't help someone, don't help a cop, or any such thing. I'm saying be aware of the facts you could be hurt, you could be killed, you could be arrested, you could be sued. By the bad guy and the State. Then decide for yourself how involved to get in any situation. But call 911 and report it, film it if you can, take careful notes to assist LEO in follow up.
