Proper hand position for empty hand v. knife

[Hudson69]

Hola all,
Based off of your personal experience or training given the situation where you cannot run, use your surroundings (basically committed to the fight) how do you hold your hands when confronted with an opponent weilding a short bladed weapon (i.e. a knife)?

I have been trained to keep my palms away to prevent serious injury there but otherwise "business as usual."

 

[jks9199]

I don't personally change anything; a knife is simply one way to extend the reach of the empty hand. My hands are part of my stance, and my stance is both my castle and my comfort zone. If I'm forced to go unarmed against a knife -- the last thing I want is to be out my zone!

I understand the reasoning (not exposing arteries, veins, etc) -- but I just don't like the idea of trying to change my principles to adapt to situations. That just seems to be an invitation to a mental jam...

 

[blindsage]

Either way you put your hands, unless you regularly train for empty hand vs. knife, it is anything but "business as usual". Most empty hand vs. knife training out there is not based on reality.

 

[seasoned]

If I have the knife and their hands are extended, I will take the hands first on my way to bigger and better things. If they have the knife I will keep my hands back in a shallow guard hoping they will stab rather then slash. Low kicks are preferred.

 

[Deaf Smith]

Hudson,

If there was any, and I do mean any, kind of makeshift weapon persent, be it books or lamps or chairs or even a hat, I'd have that in my hands. I'd keep my knees a bit bent, hands up like a boxer, and I'd be looking for an exit.

Yes I guess I'd have the outside of my forarms toward the attacker, but really I'd prefer some kind of weapon. This is especially true if they use uncommitted attacks with the knife.

Deaf

 

[kaizasosei]

That is a difficult question but somehow i find an interesting one. I think i haven't given it nearly enough thought, but from my feeling i would say it is hard to say exactly what position. It's like asking how do you hold a hot potato. With the knife, basically you don't want to get cut or stabbed in the body or the hands. If the hands are out there they are potential targets. Exposed on top of that. If you pull back you hands so they are roughly beside your ears, they are more safe, but then the body is more open.

I probably would rather also opt to protect the palm and inside more. It's kindof an almost redundant fine point, but i would expect that in the event of an attack, the hands or forarm would probably spin a little automatically to avoid, block while receiving.
I personally would keep my hands in a heart shaped position. Cupping my hands(fingers more curled in) hands about 2 inches or so apart, sortof like praying. And i would be ready to yank them back to my ears or bit wider, up or even down but being careful that if need be rather get cut a bit than alot. That means inpeccaple distancing and judgement.

Even if you manage to grab the wrist of the knifeman, if the blade is long enough and you know how they can still sortof cut some just with the circular motion of the wrist. So metal wins over flesh most always.
That is why the only way is to escape the blade is employing cover, distance, fake counters intimidation and clothing, army boots if you can block skillfully enough or risk a kick somewhere. The weapon must be avoided and the one using the weapon must be taken out as swiftly and ruthlessly as possible. Even if your flesh gets cut, cut the enemies bones. I know some interesting drills for this kind of training.

j

 

[Gaius Julius Caesar]

We try to use the bottom edge of the hands and wrist, no major vessels to cut, no major cables to cut. When you present palm side, you can get your wrist slashed, potentially leading to alot of blood loss.

If you present the back of your hands, your not gonna cut a major bleeder but you can get your tendons severed restricting your abiltiy to grasp. (Saw a guy get his tendons cut with a peice of glass and he could not move his fingers once.)

All the above said, Murphey is always around, you face a knife, expect to get cut as the rule. Try to get cut only once and make him pay dearly for it.

 

[jjwalters]

Hola all,
Based off of your personal experience or training given the situation where you cannot run, use your surroundings (basically committed to the fight) how do you hold your hands when confronted with an opponent weilding a short bladed weapon (i.e. a knife)?

I have been trained to keep my palms away to prevent serious injury there but otherwise "business as usual."

As I recollect ......when I was attacked by a knife one (60's) night in SE Asia I didn't think at all. Had I thought I would have reacted a bit slower and gotten a huge case of heart burn..........as it was I got stabbed in the thumb attempting to block the guys hand away from me.........ouch! But I saved my life.

On my way to the field hospital I came within a few inches of getting bitten by a Krait snake..........but by then I'd learned the lesson of the necessity of being aware at all times just get out of it's way.

 

[Balrog]

I have been trained to keep my palms away to prevent serious injury there but otherwise "business as usual."

Me, too. Even better is tightly clenched as fists, pumping at my side while I run like hell. :lol::lol:

 

[Hawke]

If you get a chance go to a Dog Brother's workshop and ask the instructor(s) politely if they can go over some empty hand vs knife fighting.

Also Ron Balicki has some good material on defensive edge weapons. I also recommend his workshops.

As for hand position this can change.

I understand that it's preferable to have the extensors cut (no major damage and you can still make a fist) than getting the flexors cut (arteries, veins, can no longer make a fist or grab).

 

[shane]

I don't personally change anything; a knife is simply one way to extend the reach of the empty hand. My hands are part of my stance, and my stance is both my castle and my comfort zone. If I'm forced to go unarmed against a knife -- the last thing I want is to be out my zone!

I understand the reasoning (not exposing arteries, veins, etc) -- but I just don't like the idea of trying to change my principles to adapt to situations. That just seems to be an invitation to a mental jam...

I also used the strategy as you used........

 

[dosk3n]

I read an article on WC in the past that was saying to keep your hands apart leaving a gap for your chest and this way if the attacker is an oportunist he will go to stab the chest istead of slicing at you. Since there is a clear area for the attacker to aim for you can more or less presume where he will attack so you have an idea how to defend. Then when the attack comes in you can Pac and move to blind side to get away or trap the attacker.

 

[geezer]

I read an article on WC in the past that was saying to keep your hands apart leaving a gap for your chest and this way if the attacker is an oportunist he will go to stab the chest istead of slicing at you...

I'm a life-long 'chunner and I would not endorse this advice. "He will go to stab the chest..." Are you sure? Unless you are very experienced at this kind of combat, "for reals" (and few are), how do you know what the hell the other guy is going to do? If you can't run (thanks, Balrog), grab anything available as a weapon or shield (thanks, Deaf), and take the guy out, fast, hard, or find a way out, quick.

As for hand positions for a 'chunner, I favor folding my normal "man-sau/wu-sau" guard back toward my chest with the back of my arms forward and my elbows covering my ribs. Other times I bring my arms up a bit higher to guard my throat depending on how the other guy is moving. This way I'm not leaving my arms out to be cut, I've got the (slightly) less vulnerable back of the arms forward shielding my vitals and I can still explode forward to strike using the techniques I do most reflexively.

Still I'd rather have a shotgun, or failing that, throw something heavy and hard or hit 'em with a club. Fighting against knives really sucks.

 

[Paul Nowak]

If you are defending against a blade with just your hands, then you are in big trouble. Regardless of your training, the odds are against you. Especially if your attacker knows what he is doing. Your chance of survival will increase big time if you have an edged weapon to defend yourself with. The position of your hands should be, your normal fighting stance. Mine is, hands close to my body, palms slightly facing me and below my sight of vision, square to my attacker with my elbows at my side, without an extended leg (to protect my femoral artery). Look for a way out (always and your main priority) and use your environment to your advantage. If you can't, redirect the attack, trap (never let go) and strike to kill or seriously injure. If you simply block or redirect, the attacker will just keep at it and sooner than later he will find his mark. Invest in a good pair of running shoes or a nice .45

 

[David43515]

I`ve only had knives pulled on me 3 times in 35 years in the MA. First time the kid didn`t really try to attack, he just held it out there to intimidate me. I was able to grab that wrist and jerk him right off his feet. Never got a scratch. The second time they were just presenting, and I still got cut across two fingers trying the same thing. The third time was a small girl who didn`t weigh 100 lbs soaking wet.....but she knew what she was doing. There was no way to get near her w/o getting cut deep wide and often. So I kept my distance, picked something up, and talked my way out.

Years ago I worked for a custom knife company (Busse Combat Knife co. Wauseon, OH) and I did enough test cutting to learn that unless the knife is a small utility razor or a folder, a "cut" is the least of your worries. If they have a large kitchen knife or a heavy sheath knife the weight and length give their cut TREMENDOUS leverage. You need to start worrying about having fingers and possibly the whole hand chopped off.

That being said, I`d probably try to keep my palms facing me while I closed to keep bleeding and tendon cuts to a minimum, and so I could still grab, but that`s usually how I defend anyway. Palms don`t really go out unless I`m attacking or grabbing. I don`t think my tactics would change much except that I`d be trying to end it faster. Like others said, anything you could get in your hands would be better than no weapon at all. And I can`t reccomend good FMA/Silat enough. Check out Marc Denny and Gabe Suarez`s "Die Less Often".

Odds are you won`t know it`s a kknife attack until aftyer you`re cut up anyway.

 

[Deaf Smith]

IYears ago I worked for a custom knife company (Busse Combat Knife co. Wauseon, OH) and I did enough test cutting to learn that unless the knife is a small utility razor or a folder, a "cut" is the least of your worries. If they have a large kitchen knife or a heavy sheath knife the weight and length give their cut TREMENDOUS leverage. You need to start worrying about having fingers and possibly the whole hand chopped off.

Jim Bowie didn't use the 'Iron Maiden' for nothing. A 12 inch heavy thick blade will take a hand off at the wrist.

But back to disarming a knife, if the attack is a committed type, that is they lunge for you for a deep cut or slash, you have a chance. But if the attack is an uncommitted type, where they feint and fake and stab or slash with quick balanced motions they are hard to defend against. The best defense is to pick up a weapon or shield to keep them at bay.

Which reminds me… what is the first rule of unarmed combat?
.
.
.
Don’t be unarmed.

Deaf

 

[5rings]

First off we are lions, not lambs. If you train in a martial art, you maintain at least a limited understanding of warriorship. We do not run from conflict but defusion and avoidance should still play a key role in our strategy, but if confronted with an armed assailant and there is no recourse but to defend ourselves and our loved ones, we must address this issue with the most appropriate and urgent means possible, still there are other issues which play vital factors in the aggressiveness of such an attack.

1. It is lethal force and should be addressed as such.
2. Position of the knife grip of the assailant is vital.
3. Range at the onset is of utmost importance.
4. Limiting exposure to vital areas such as the inside wrist, chest, stomach and neck are duly important.
5. Stance and use of field expediant defensive tool is essential.

If the assailant positions his hand in a standard tactical grip (thumb on top of handle) best recourse is to use a technique called indexing, best scenario is knife against knife but will be explained here briefly without the use of a defensive instrument since it is still can be done effectively taking a defensive stance, make a clenched fist and strike down on to the inside of the assailant's wrist (knife hand) then quickly grab with our opposite hand grabbing his wrist pulling the wrist away from your body. If this technique is done correctly and with adequate purscision it will dislodge the knife from his hand or loosen his grip and allow time for you to address the knife appropriately. Try to strike with the two large knuckles of your hand to the inside wrist area, this technique will need to be practiced repetively to acquire proper accuracy. Style to watch CQD (Close Quarter Defense) indexing technique, if you can find it.

If attacked with a reverse grip try striking aggressively with a inside forearm block keeping your blocking hand (support hand) in a clenched fist. Style to watch San Soo Kung Fu, best known for this and many of their opening blocks.

Defensive preventable measures that you might implement into practice can be implementation of kevlar gloves and forearm protection practice all your defensive techniques against a knife rather than a punch, sparr regularly with washable markers to acquire agility, speed and accuracy.
Always think try outside the Traditional box

 

[Rich Parsons]

Hola all,
Based off of your personal experience or training given the situation where you cannot run, use your surroundings (basically committed to the fight) how do you hold your hands when confronted with an opponent weilding a short bladed weapon (i.e. a knife)?

I have been trained to keep my palms away to prevent serious injury there but otherwise "business as usual."

Is there something for me to pick up?

A rock, stick, tuna fish can?

Do I have my pens in my pocket?

Do I have my belt?

Do I have my shoes?

Am I wearing a jacket?

What is the lighting? Night or day time?

Climate conditions and terrain?


So assuming I am wearing my boxers and nothing else and nothing to pick up and terrain is slippery (* snow/ice/water *) on low mu surface, I will continue to do what I have trained to do for empty hand versus knife.

If I am surprised, even if I am wearing a godo leather jacket and jeans and good shoes and have a knife in my pocket. I have in the past always reacted to the threat as it was entering my zone. JKS's comment about zome is very apt and is something that many systems look and use.

But if I have time to react, I always grab something.

 

[Drac]

Is there something for me to pick up?

A rock, stick, tuna fish can?

Do I have my pens in my pocket?

Do I have my belt?

Do I have my shoes?

Am I wearing a jacket?

What is the lighting? Night or day time?

Climate conditions and terrain?


So assuming I am wearing my boxers and nothing else and nothing to pick up and terrain is slippery (* snow/ice/water *) on low mu surface, I will continue to do what I have trained to do for empty hand versus knife.

If I am surprised, even if I am wearing a godo leather jacket and jeans and good shoes and have a knife in my pocket. I have in the past always reacted to the threat as it was entering my zone. JKS's comment about zome is very apt and is something that many systems look and use.

But if I have time to react, I always grab something.

Great post Rich..Look around there is always something laying around, beer bottles etc..etc..Hell, a handfull of dirt or grit flung into the eyes of an attacker will temproary blind him while a run like hell or give ya the chance to unholster your .45..Make sure ya do A LOT of unarmed defenses against a knife drills in your school..

 

[Chris Parker]

Hi,

First off we are lions, not lambs. If you train in a martial art, you maintain at least a limited understanding of warriorship.

That is your view, and of course, you are entitled to it. However I have seen that that is not necessarily the case, ideal though it may be. Oh, and I am neither a lion nor lamb, I am very happy being a man...

We do not run from conflict but defusion and avoidance should still play a key role in our strategy, but if confronted with an armed assailant and there is no recourse but to defend ourselves and our loved ones, we must address this issue with the most appropriate and urgent means possible, still there are other issues which play vital factors in the aggressiveness of such an attack.

Okay, that was certainly a sentence.... Might want to break those thoughts down a bit more. I may also suggest a carved-in-granite approach (to your posting as well as your thoughts), you do say that we should "think outside the traditional box..." You may want to think outside the limitations that you impose on yourself as well. Relax a bit. Not everything is "must", it's not all black and white.

But to the point.

1. It is lethal force and should be addressed as such.
2. Position of the knife grip of the assailant is vital.
3. Range at the onset is of utmost importance.
4. Limiting exposure to vital areas such as the inside wrist, chest, stomach and neck are duly important.
5. Stance and use of field expediant defensive tool is essential.

Okay, these are good, and if someone reading this hasn't realised this already, it's good to let them know. But again, relax your method of delivery, you may find that people will be more willing to listen if it doesn't come across as you lecturing them on things they already know.

If the assailant positions his hand in a standard tactical grip (thumb on top of handle) best recourse is to use a technique called indexing, best scenario is knife against knife but will be explained here briefly without the use of a defensive instrument since it is still can be done effectively taking a defensive stance, make a clenched fist and strike down on to the inside of the assailant's wrist (knife hand) then quickly grab with our opposite hand grabbing his wrist pulling the wrist away from your body. If this technique is done correctly and with adequate purscision it will dislodge the knife from his hand or loosen his grip and allow time for you to address the knife appropriately. Try to strike with the two large knuckles of your hand to the inside wrist area, this technique will need to be practiced repetively to acquire proper accuracy. Style to watch CQD (Close Quarter Defense) indexing technique, if you can find it.

Okay, this is why I am saying to relax your approach a bit more, this is not allowing so many variables at all. To begin with, this indexing technique is relying on a specific placement of yourself (inside the opponent's weapon), but that is not actually my biggest issue with it.

Against a knife, if it is just being held out, it is most likely only being used to threaten or scare, so I'm just going to go along with what is asked (unless it puts myself or my loved ones in danger, obviously. If they just want money, I have no problem parting with that), and if you suddenly try to strike against the knife hand then, well, odds are you just cut yourself unnecessarily. From the more dangerous side. Not something I would advise at all.

If the attacker is slashing or thrusting, then the only time I may consider this type of responce is against a "forehand" slash, against a "backhand" or a thrust, I'm going to try to stay outside. It's just safer. The next thing to realise is that the natural human reaction (remember I said I wasn't a lion or lamb?) when there is something coming in like that is to grab. It may not be the smartest thing, but it's what we're hardwired to do. So your responce will take a lot of training to counterman that hardwired reaction, and I would prefer to do something that is more in line with a natural responce.

You also say that you should take their arm and move it away from your own body? Really? That's probably the last thing I would suggest, particularly if they stilll have the knife.... By bringing it in towards your hip (past your hip, so you don't run yourself through!) you can control a lot easier. Pull their arm out away from yourself, and all you are doing is removing your control and giving them the space to manipulate the knife, turn it and cut you, or worse. Not really good.

But the big thing here is that this is incredibly limited, and if you are saying that this is the ideal action, and better than all others (which is how your post reads to me, honestly), then you may find a nasty surprise if you see a different shape in real life.... or more hopefully in training.

If attacked with a reverse grip try striking aggressively with a inside forearm block keeping your blocking hand (support hand) in a clenched fist. Style to watch San Soo Kung Fu, best known for this and many of their opening blocks.

Again, the natural responce is to grab, so I'd personally go with an open hand to enable that grabbing action to work for me... but that's me. And again, this may work for some reverse grip attacks, but I can see it just resulting in cut forearms in many circumstances.

Defensive preventable measures that you might implement into practice can be implementation of kevlar gloves and forearm protection practice all your defensive techniques against a knife rather than a punch, sparr regularly with washable markers to acquire agility, speed and accuracy.

Why the kevlar gloves unless you are talking about metal training knives? And if you are, why? And if you are talking about sparring against a knife, I'd personally advise some eye and face protection as well....

As for the markers etc, that can be fun. But it's best use is to highlight just how easy it is to get cut. So I wouldn't use it too often. Instead, I would rather rigourously drill a series of principles over and over (and over and over and over.....), and use them as a method of testing afterward. It's actually not quite as realistic as it seems.

Always think try outside the Traditional box

I guess my biggest point is that this entire approach seems very limited, and very black-and-white to me, and although you have only a few posts here (and 1 small "blog" statement), it comes through as a pattern in everything you have written so far.

I saw your Meet and Greet thread, but can't find anything about the systems you list in your profile wherever I look. And with such limited other information that you present us with, might I suggest you let us know a bit more about yourself? At this point, I am starting to form an image, but would prefer to get a bit more information to be a little more accurate.

As to the OP, well, there really is no one answer, just a few basic guidelines.... have them in a position where you can defend yourself easily and quickly, try to avoid holding them where they become an easily cut target, and so on. But even those have exceptions, you may hold one hand out as a target in order to entice an attack that you can predict. So, really, there is no one "proper" position, as it really does depend on too many other factors not listed.