UFC & PRIDE What is your opinion?

[Black Bear]

Marginal is correct. In fact, some MMAers have written about possible psychological/spiritual BENEFITS of the sportive approach over the TMA approach. It is funny that people would "assume" that one to be better than the other. Possibly cognitive dissonance at work.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

It is a gross - and potentially dangerous - misconceptualization to consider MMA'sts as not posessing the knowledge of maiming attacks (eye jabs, kicks to the knee, etc.). These attacks make great sense on paper, and there is even one Wing Chun hundred-yard warrior who has repeatedly published articles in the karate mags about how he would use his trapping hands and eye strikes to defeat a stoopid wrassler. He has yet, however, to take one up on an invitation to go all out...2 fight, anything goes, one walks away and the other goes to the hospital if they're lucky.

The Gracies used - in pre-UFC challenge matches - what would be called in kenpo terms a "lead-leg pull-drag side stamp kick" to the lead knee of their opponent to close the gap, and ruin tissues in the process. Eye gouges can be delivered easily from the mount, at a range from which the other guy can not counter. If you want to get smug about it, you can even pin one of his arms under a knee, and the other one with a hand, leaving one of the wrasslers hand free to happily claw away at the ocular orbits, punch at the throat, or drive heavy inward elbows into the pterion/temple...all while the guy on the bottom can do nothing but get hit, squirm, and pass out. Remember the 2nd UFC where the kickboxer mounts and beats the ninja-boy with elbows? Unstopped or out of a ring, that fight would have ended with some serious skull fractures and brain swelling. Good combat strategy consists of nullifying your opponents ability to utilize their resources, providing you the opportunity to deploy yours at will. Why do you suppose air bases, missile batteries, and infrastrusture are the first targets in a pre-invasion air war?

We have the same nasty tools as the rest of the TMA crowd...we just like delivering them from a more advantageous, one-sided position. And I'll tell you this: All the pontificating about the woulda-coulda-shoulda stuff about how to defeat an experienced grappler who has you mounted flies out the window when you're pinned under the straddle, and getting pummeled. We don't just mount you to lay on you. Submissions wrestling is the nice-guy approach to whippin' a** in BJJ & MMA.

Final thought: MMA does not mean athlete only; it means MIXED martial arts. Mix might loook like JKD modified kickboxing and Thai while upright and in a clinch, shifting to shootfighting and BJJ when the brawl hits the floor. That works just as well on the side of the freeway as it does in a ring.

Food for thought,

Dr. Dave

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Thanks dude!!!! Nice clip. Yeah, that was a solid kick to me. And it got a reaction from Yoshida!

Mike

Teach him to wear a cup?

 

[Black Bear]

KKK's correct. But I think there is at the same time a conversation going on about MMA, and another about UFC and stuff. Competition guys such as in the UFC are by no means clueless about maiming, gouging, etc. but will ultimately de-emphasize it in their training. They're serious athletes focused on their performance in a particular task, and their training reflects this.

Years ago I was with Blauer Tactical and very self-defense oriented. Lots of streetified groundfighting. In the past year or two I've been swtiched over to an athletic-driven MMA routine. It's not like the moment I put on a rash guard it squeezed all the fouling tactics out of my brain and they dripped out of my ears. But my training time doesn't reflect them. That said, proper grappling technique negates them admirably. And my grappling ability has much improved because that's what I'm working on.

 

[loki09789]

KKK's correct. But I think there is at the same time a conversation going on about MMA, and another about UFC and stuff. Competition guys such as in the UFC are by no means clueless about maiming, gouging, etc. but will ultimately de-emphasize it in their training. They're serious athletes focused on their performance in a particular task, and their training reflects this.

Years ago I was with Blauer Tactical and very self-defense oriented. Lots of streetified groundfighting. In the past year or two I've been swtiched over to an athletic-driven MMA routine. It's not like the moment I put on a rash guard it squeezed all the fouling tactics out of my brain and they dripped out of my ears. But my training time doesn't reflect them. That said, proper grappling technique negates them admirably. And my grappling ability has much improved because that's what I'm working on.

The athleticism component is the compensator, I think. Not to say that a guy who can snatch and clean 375 lbs can withstand an eye gouge or groin shot better, but the neuralogical speed, the elite competition that they are prepared for and the endurance, power and mental will that is emphasised and made more immediate is a huge factor in balancing out any lack of 'street' dirt in the training.

I remember how the training in the service for that "you never know" war differed considerably to the "Gulf War is here" training back in my rucksack days....

 

[Matt Bernius]

Further, I've been on both sides of TMA/MMA as well as the "tactical geek" crowd. Good MMA sport fighters naturally negate eye gouges, soft-tissue gouges, etc. Experienced TMAists that train at our place are invariably shocked that what they assumed to be effective "antigrappling" tactics, well, just AREN'T. They work against a relatively unskilled person trying to grapple you, but not a guy who knows how to grapple. Why? Because the MMAists train the "dirty tricks" too. If you properly crossmount a guy, with your hip deep in his armpit so that his arm is up past his head, he cannot bring his hands to bear against any target. If your side ride is done correctly, there's no "framing"out of it by trying to smear one's ulna against your jawline.

Knee breaks and groin kicks are part of MMA (depending on what you mean by knee breaks).

I just wanted to second this as someone who as also crosstrained on both sides of this. Prior to working with trained MMA's I was pretty confident of "antigrappling" techniques. And I have discovered that I had a lot of false assumptions thanks to working freestyle with a number of very talented people.

And that's what it comes down to. Before one makes a sweeping generalization about an art or training methodology they should at least observe if not participate in said experience. You don't have to enter the UFC, but at least work with a MMA person.

- Matt

 

[7starmantis]

I actually do work with several MMA grappler guys. I think I was misunderstood. I don't think the answer to grappling is anti-grappling. Although there are techniques for that and it only comes down to who is better, the grappler or the "anti-grappler" in those situations. Wait that is in any fight situation isn't it?

The answer is realistic training. Plain and simple. I'm too tired to explain it more.

7sm

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I actually do work with several MMA grappler guys. I think I was misunderstood. I don't think the answer to grappling is anti-grappling. Although there are techniques for that and it only comes down to who is better, the grappler or the "anti-grappler" in those situations. Wait that is in any fight situation isn't it?

The answer is realistic training. Plain and simple. I'm too tired to explain it more.

7sm

Word.

 

[JDenz]

I think that anyone who doesn't think boxers hit hard, has definitly been hit once to many times in the head. Jokes aside hitting hard is alot diffrent then hitting someone hard that is trying to hit you. Try fighting with a good boxer or wrestler, I think most TMA's would be surprised how well they know angles, how hard it is to hit them, much less hit them square.
For anyone's information the first few UFC's had no rules. You could eye gauge or bite. In fact the Royce got bit in the finals against Gordo. The only thing that happened is you got fined if you got caught. It was truly NHB, now a days though it is very regulated and that is what they needed to do to turn it into the sport it is today.
Today's UFC and Pride is awsome. There are olympic level guys in there that live breathe eat and sleep fighting. Most of these guys don't care where they learn what they know. Todays breed of fighters don't care about where something comes from only if it works or not. I think this is starting to happen in todays TMA to. I am not sure how everyone feels about that but UFC has definitly affected how every one trains or wants to train.
I have debated with alot of people how hard it is to stop a takedown. It isn't as simple is hitting a person on the shoot it has been proven over and over agian that it doesn't work. The way to stop leg attacks is learn to have a good sprawl let the grappler close the distance get a good sprawl get away and land your strikes. Watch guys like Cro crop, and Igor. Every show guys are getting better and better at defending takedowns.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

I think that anyone who doesn't think boxers hit hard, has definitly been hit once to many times in the head. Jokes aside hitting hard is alot diffrent then hitting someone hard that is trying to hit you. Try fighting with a good boxer or wrestler, I think most TMA's would be surprised how well they know angles, how hard it is to hit them, much less hit them square.
For anyone's information the first few UFC's had no rules. You could eye gauge or bite. In fact the Royce got bit in the finals against Gordo. The only thing that happened is you got fined if you got caught. It was truly NHB, now a days though it is very regulated and that is what they needed to do to turn it into the sport it is today.
Today's UFC and Pride is awsome. There are olympic level guys in there that live breathe eat and sleep fighting. Most of these guys don't care where they learn what they know. Todays breed of fighters don't care about where something comes from only if it works or not. I think this is starting to happen in todays TMA to. I am not sure how everyone feels about that but UFC has definitly affected how every one trains or wants to train.
I have debated with alot of people how hard it is to stop a takedown. It isn't as simple is hitting a person on the shoot it has been proven over and over agian that it doesn't work. The way to stop leg attacks is learn to have a good sprawl let the grappler close the distance get a good sprawl get away and land your strikes. Watch guys like Cro crop, and Igor. Every show guys are getting better and better at defending takedowns.

Ayup. In the early days of grappling, stylistic differences were obvious. A shoot-fighter or sambo guy would come in and do leg and heel locks we had never seen before, and would puzzle over the intricacies; then we would mount them, and watch them struggle for an escape without placing themselves in another mouse trap. Now the techs have all sort of blended, and everyone is using everything. Makes for awesome MA evolution. Something in there about necessity being the mother of invention?

D.