UFC & PRIDE What is your opinion?

[Bob Hubbard]

So....

can someone tell me when the Marine Corp switched their training programs to preping for MMA matches rather than combat? Last I heard, their stuff was a lot more 'traditional' in feel than UFC rules style.

MMA stuff like UFC is a sport, and all sports have rules.
A street fight doesn't.

Anyone who doesn't understand that distinctive difference is sadly as deluded as the person who spends years doing kata in the air, without ever truely understanding the meaning behind the movements.

I've sparred strikers, kickers, stick jocks and knife nuts. Did those fights goto the ground? Some. Not all. The grapplers were more intent on doing the take downs. The knifers more intent on slicin n dicin, and the stick jocks more intent on the pinyata party with my head. Its all in how you train.

Now, I've spared with Ace a few times...very tallented dirt roller he is. Yes, the great majority of those matches went south, and I spent a lot of time doing the woodpecker impression (that means I was tappin alot). In all truthfulness, that was often after taking a shot that would have stopped the fight if we weren't pulling the shots and wearing gear. Some people will keep punching. Ace's preference is to go for the take down and submission. He's good at it.

Its all in how you train. If you train for effectiveness and understanding, you can find that in most arts.
If you train for the TV stuff...well, you have a few choices...and at least the UFC doesn't make you wear silly costumes...the WWE on the other hand.... :rofl:

My opinion of the UFC and its ilk?
Its great for the arts by drawing interest, but is so was Power Rangers.
Neither are real combat arts.

:asian:

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

C'mon Bob...comparing MMA to the Power Rangers! Really now...was it Jason's severing the brain-stem assertion that drove you to make that comparison?

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Naw. I just see them as opposite sides of the same basic concept: Entertainment.
Plus, I didn't say MMA...I said UFC. I see a difference.
I see MMA as more than just cuddlin on the ground...I see it as a hybrid combination of the best of all worlds both traditional and 'new'.

The UFC though......Power Rangers on Steriods without the cute spandex outfits and magic decoder rings?

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Naw. I just see them as opposite sides of the same basic concept: Entertainment.
Plus, I didn't say MMA...I said UFC. I see a difference.
I see MMA as more than just cuddlin on the ground...I see it as a hybrid combination of the best of all worlds both traditional and 'new'.

The UFC though......Power Rangers on Steriods without the cute spandex outfits and magic decoder rings?

Unless I'm mistaken, isn't that a Power Rangers outfit you're wearing in that picture of you hiding? :lol:

 

[Bob Hubbard]

Naw..paintball gear....its close though

:rofl:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Naw..paintball gear....its close though

:rofl:

Paintball in the hills outside San Diego...most painful Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness I've ever felt in my legs. Props for staying in past the fatigue factor. Awesome adreniline rush.

 

[Black Bear]

UFC fighters are from among the top of the MMA pile. Couture, Ortiz, etc. Great athletes from great gyms, I respect them all. Even the ones who got their butts wiped deserve respect first for qualifying in the non-televised fights, and second for having the wontons to put themselves on the line at all.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

UFC fighters are from among the top of the MMA pile. Couture, Ortiz, etc. Great athletes from great gyms, I respect them all. Even the ones who got their butts wiped deserve respect first for qualifying in the non-televised fights, and second for having the wontons to put themselves on the line at all.

ayup.

 

[7starmantis]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

 

[Mudo Warrior]

I personally am not a big fan of MMA. When th UFC first came out it was almost like a battle of the arts fought by 2 men of different styles. Now it just professional wrestling with out the story lines. I think when UFC 1 came out I was a brown belt and we were all excited about it, but my instructor just said one thing when he saw that there was a large cash prize for the winner. "Atrue black belt never fights for money." Call me a stupid traditionalist but I agree and I really didn't understand him until a few years ago. My thoughts are that 2 warriors facing each other in combat should only need the satisfaction of knowing that one came out victorious. I also understand that there are non-MMa more, style oriented cash prize tournaments but, I disagree with them as well. My fear with these MMA, however, is that teaching people fighting techniques without the philosophies of most traditional martial arts is a dangerous thing. Now I not just some sissy who doesn't want to hit the mat for fear that I might get some bumps or bruises. I have trained with a MMA organization on several occasions, and they are tough fighters, but so are us old school traditionalists. I guess that I would have to say that I disagree only with the money prizes and my opinion that MMA is adding to the decline of traditional martial arts by teach no philosophy. Martial arts without some type of philisophical value is just a street brawl, and where is the value in that?

Respectfully,
Mudo Warrior

 

[James Kovacich]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

Good answer, BUT how do we know thats all that they train?

There are real martial artists out there that compete in MMA. So unless we've experienced there training first hand or seen credible tape of their complete training, then who really knows? :asian:

 

[MJS]

Good answer, BUT how do we know thats all that they train?

There are real martial artists out there that compete in MMA. So unless we've experienced there training first hand or seen credible tape of their complete training, then who really knows? :asian:

Very good point. My thoughts exactly. For another discussion on the same topic, check out the Chinese MA thread regarding the UFC. Pretty interesting debate going on there.

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

Oh yeah? Watch this clip of Royce Gracie fighting Yoshida at Pride.
http://www.judoinfo.com/video/roycekick.mpeg
Now, what was that you were saying?

I personally am not a big fan of MMA. When th UFC first came out it was almost like a battle of the arts fought by 2 men of different styles. Now it just professional wrestling with out the story lines. I think when UFC 1 came out I was a brown belt and we were all excited about it, but my instructor just said one thing when he saw that there was a large cash prize for the winner. "Atrue black belt never fights for money." Call me a stupid traditionalist but I agree and I really didn't understand him until a few years ago. My thoughts are that 2 warriors facing each other in combat should only need the satisfaction of knowing that one came out victorious. I also understand that there are non-MMa more, style oriented cash prize tournaments but, I disagree with them as well. My fear with these MMA, however, is that teaching people fighting techniques without the philosophies of most traditional martial arts is a dangerous thing. Now I not just some sissy who doesn't want to hit the mat for fear that I might get some bumps or bruises. I have trained with a MMA organization on several occasions, and they are tough fighters, but so are us old school traditionalists. I guess that I would have to say that I disagree only with the money prizes and my opinion that MMA is adding to the decline of traditional martial arts by teach no philosophy. Martial arts without some type of philisophical value is just a street brawl, and where is the value in that?

Using TMA vocabulary: MMA is an "Art" or "Jutsu" and TMA is a a "Way" or "Do". MMA eschews a lot of the Shaolin, Zen, Shinto, Bushido rituals, formalities, and philosophies to focus on the physical result.

Is that a dangerous thing? Well, if you don't pay MMA fighters you remove the distinction between the ring and the street and might create a few more street brawlers. So, you pay TMA'ers with spriritual enlightenment; you pay MMA'ers in cash.

The dilema about teaching/omitting traditional Bushido philosophy is related to the ultimate goal of martial arts training: Are you teaching/training a wannabee Shaolin Monk or are you training a Fighter? There is value in both types of training.

The problem arises when the wannabee Shaolin Monks believe their meditation, kata practice, and slogans make them better fighters than those who just train to fight. Don't get me wrong: I am all for self-improvement. I am just not so naive that I can't tell the difference between a self-improvement course and a fight-training program.

 

[MJS]

OFK- Where do you go after you click on the link????

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Sorry the link didn't come through. try pasting this into your browser:

"http://judoinfo.com/video/roycekick.mpeg"

Or, go to www.judoinfo.com
Click "Step Onto the Mat"
Click on "News"
Scroll down to "Yoshida Fights to a Draw in MMA Rematch Against Royce Gracie"
Click on "Gracie kicks Yoshida in the groin."

 

[Marginal]

My fear with these MMA, however, is that teaching people fighting techniques without the philosophies of most traditional martial arts is a dangerous thing.

They seem to acheive similar ends with or without the pseudo Asian trappings. Most Pride and MMA fighters in general tend to be respectful of each other, and boxers routinely talk about how boxing settled their tempers etc down.

They're not insane battleragers by and large.

 

[MJS]

Sorry the link didn't come through. try pasting this into your browser:

"http://judoinfo.com/video/roycekick.mpeg"

Or, go to www.judoinfo.com
Click "Step Onto the Mat"
Click on "News"
Scroll down to "Yoshida Fights to a Draw in MMA Rematch Against Royce Gracie"
Click on "Gracie kicks Yoshida in the groin."

Thanks dude!!!! Nice clip. Yeah, that was a solid kick to me. And it got a reaction from Yoshida!

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Thanks Mike.

Just another example of how everything in BJJ is already in Kenpo :boing2:

 

[MJS]

Thanks Mike.

Just another example of how everything in BJJ is already in Kenpo :boing2:

:cheers: :cheers: :lool: :lool:

Mike

 

[Black Bear]

My only reserve from calling UFC fighters the top of the pile of MAist (notice I didn't say MMA) is that they train for a specific scenario only. How would say, Ortiz fair with a trained MAist who is looking for the knee break, eye gouge, groin kick, etc? Most MMA train for events like the UFC and it seems that some of them forget to train for scenarios outside those set of rules.

7sm

I about half agree with what you've said. I would agree that most tend to train for one scenario almost exclusively, because they're competition athletes. A pro fighter from the Straight Blast Gym is not going to be out teaching the ISR Matrix program, nor is a Gracie competition fighter likely to teach the G.R.A.P.L.E. program. "Forget" seems to imply neglect, though, and that's obviously not the case.

Further, I've been on both sides of TMA/MMA as well as the "tactical geek" crowd. Good MMA sport fighters naturally negate eye gouges, soft-tissue gouges, etc. Experienced TMAists that train at our place are invariably shocked that what they assumed to be effective "antigrappling" tactics, well, just AREN'T. They work against a relatively unskilled person trying to grapple you, but not a guy who knows how to grapple. Why? Because the MMAists train the "dirty tricks" too. If you properly crossmount a guy, with your hip deep in his armpit so that his arm is up past his head, he cannot bring his hands to bear against any target. If your side ride is done correctly, there's no "framing"out of it by trying to smear one's ulna against your jawline.

Knee breaks and groin kicks are part of MMA (depending on what you mean by knee breaks).