UFC & PRIDE What is your opinion?

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Chicago Green Dragon:

OK, your friends may have gone to a real fight club. They may have seen some guys get knocked out, maybe hurt real bad.

But what happened when that guy died? Did they just stick him in a trash bag and throw him in the dumpster? Did they try and resuscitate him or give some kind of CPR? Did they call 911? Or, did they all just scatter and leave the building?

I assume you are fairly intelligent as you write well and have chosen to pursue martial arts and increase your knowledge via the internet and other means.

Please use your intelligence and question what people tell you about the martial arts. There are a lot of myths and legends. Question them all. Question what your friends tell you. Question what your instructor tells you. Question what you read on the internet. Question what you read from strangers like me on internet forums. Test everything to determine if it is really true. You must do this to rise above the myths and legends that enables nonsense and fraud to hide behind tradition and hierachical obedience. You must do this to get the most out of your martial arts training.

 

[Jason Davis]

Jason:

I have to agree with MJS about the Iron Palm stuff. It's like the one-inch punch--works OK on someone standing there waiting to get hit. Doesn't work so well on a moving target. Doesn't work at all against a conditioned, trained, fully-engaged pro-fighter -- and that's why nobody does it in pro fights. If it really worked, people would do it. That is one of the key lessons of MMA.

And, yes. The fights are not Ho Holds Barred anymore. The first UFC's were pretty close to No Holds Barred. And, trying to market this new event in the early 90's, No Holds Barred was probably the most descriptive name anybody could come up with.

i'm over it

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

A couple of things. First, Jason said, "it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you.". It actually IS hard to fracture a brain stem when someone is shooting in on you. I do rehab for PM&R and ortho docs who get some of the gnarliest spine injuries you've ever seen, with significant brain and spinal cord damage. The brain stem proper is concealed in a vault of bone, and bone is...believe it or not...flexible in situ (in the body of a living person). Whack it really hard, and it will mostly bend. The skull has layers of diploe, which dent before breaking, in order to protect the central nervous system...the ONLY organ system completely encased in bone. The Gracies have been doing challenge matches since the 1920's againt people insisting they could knock them out on their way in, totalling -- between family members, cousins, friends of family, etc. -- thousands. No fractured brainstems yet.

Second, calling MMA NHB is a holdover from the original intent of the UFC. I was training at the Gracie academy in Torrance, CA, when all the Gracie brothers were still under one roof...Rorion, Rickson, Royler, Royce, (Relson was in Hawaii) and even remember when Rorion brought his cousins up to help with some UFAF seminars, the Machado's. The Gracie bros put out the Gracie challenge...come here, kick my a** with your acu-karate, and walk out of here with a check for $100,000.00. If you watch GJJ In Action 1 & 2, you'll see some videos of the early takers in Torrance...they were always taped, so a guy couldn't walk out and say, "I beat them but they don't wanna fess up". Rorion could simply plug in the tape and say, "this part where you're going to sleep...is that where you beat me?".

Rorion got involved with some of the hollywood crowd, and a producer put it to him basically like this: Why are you doing this for free, when you could be making a mint off pay-per-view? Bill it like WWF, but for real?" Rorion, being financially astute (and a little greedy), went for it. 1st decision: which brother to put in the ring? Rickson had already been a sports hero in Brazil, so opted out to make room for his brothers to up their rep. Royce got on board...haven't been to the academy for years, but they used to keep a video library of all the challenge matches, for view upon request. Some great footage in there of him brawling with a couple of scary hick wrestlers, regional champs each pushing 400 pounds. Could'nt get the choke around one guys neck (too big around), so flagged the wrist instead.

I digress. There were people in line to take the Gracie challenge...always someone bigger and badder waiting for the chance at easy 100K. My buddy, Mick, and I worked at a club in Huntington Beach called Club 5902, where the 2nd in command bouncer was a Hawaiian kid named Kimo who fancied himself unbeatable. Unfortunately, he was constantly shadowed by his self-proclaimed manager and trainer, Cho San. UFC fans should recognize these names. Mick and I would chide Kimo about taking the Gracie challenge...by the time he decided to, Davies had already gotten to Rorion, so Kimo had to wait for a shot through the UFC (see UFC II). I thought it would be fun to go in as American Eclectic, but they only wanted one rep of Brazilian Groundfighting, and I had already been a blue belt for awhile.

Public outcry --> PPV insisting there be more rules...more padding, etc. NHB had to tame down to be allowed to happen in most states. I remember the scrambles that went on finding venues, sometimes not having one until the absolute last minute, because states were legsilating the heck out of UFC as "prizefighting".

Meanwhile, Rickson sees there's purse to be made, and figures the amount the fighters are getting from sponsors in US = shyte. So, opts for the gladiatorial spirit of Japan...Pride. (had the pleasure of visiting with him after both of the 1st 2 Prides, getting color commentary from him about what went on in his head during each fight). Pride victories also led to some fun stuff locally. Japanese so furious that there top JJ and shooto guys were getting whooped by the foriegner, that they sent an enforcer-level shoot fighter to Santa Monica to beat up Rickson in front of a contingency of Japanese press. He let in one cameraman, and the fighter, then closed the door. If you ever get the chance to watch this tape, it's awesome. Rickson's in his pajamas, having been rousted out of bed by Louis. Shoot-boy kicks RG in the thigh a couple of times, and you can tell it's hard, and it stings. RG gets sick of it, shoots, takes the guy down, and they change positions very often, very fast. Rickson gets superior position, punches the guy into a pulp, then chokes him out. Lets the press in just as he's waking up, so Nippon can look into the cameras of the press as his righting reflex is kicking in to consciousness. Next day, japanese sports press has front page pictures of a bloody face looking up from under Rickson. It was true NHB, no gloves, no rules, just 2 guys and their skills until somebody is toast.

Most of the Gracie challenge matches were this way...bare-knuckle, with 1 rule: no eyes. Not because they thought it would stop them, but if, fight after fight, they have desperate putz' trying to scratch their eyes, then the Gracies have to spend the rest of their lives with scars on their cheeks. Watched Rickson take a challenge at a seminar where the guy insisted on eyes. Ricksons response? Sure, as long as I get to claw at yours after you've gone to sleep, and can't squint to defend them. He put the guy in a crucifix, instead.

Yes, Tank hits hard. I knew the kick-boxer who knocked his teeth out at Perq's in Huntington Beach (he trained with one of the guys from Benny Urquidez's championship team that toured the east in the mid seventies, taking all comers in whatever form they chose...bare-knuckle, muay thai, etc.). Tank is also a poor loser...spent the night looking for him with a shotgun. Punched a 12-year old girl in the face at Westminster Boxing gym; and he & some of his skinhead buddies jumped a black guy in an elevator after one of the UFC's where the colored guy did well, because he was talking a lot victory trash between bouts. I also know the Hawaiian bounty hunter who "reprimanded" tank for his behavior in the boxing gym, and taught him what he didn't know about boxing. I'd roll with Tank any day, but having seen him hit the bag and people, I wouldn't stand toe to toe for a boxing match...unless you've been boxing hard, and strength training on steroids, he'd knock yer head off.

Fight clubs still go on. Lots of white belts and blue belts with backgrounds in other arts that want to test themselves in realistic circumstances. Nope, not ususally as good as the pro's, but set to become one of them someday if they don't sustain too many injuries. (the guys from one South Orange County jits gym can't seem to keep their hands to themselves, and are even being investigated for RICO statute violations b/c of intimidation crap).

I stopped following the scene in the mid-to-late 90's, because work and school took priority and I couldn't make time to get on the mat between the two of them. Also, because there were so many different American BJJ guys starting to win these things, who I knew were no good (I'd rolled either with them, or with their instructor. Lots of purple belts left the GJJ academy to buy promotions from a Gracie Cousin in Newport Beach who lacked morals). But you need to trust me on this one: The Brazilian (and early American) GJJ/BJJ guys are as brutal, if not more, out of the ring than in. They honed their skills in literally hundreds of challenge matches before the pads or rules even existed.

Can they hit? Get under Rickson's or Renzo's mount, and you tell me. Rickson, to be nice, will *****-slap people to coach the response he wants in a challenge match. If they can't believe it really happened, and ask for a re-match, he "turns the screws a little tighter", and switch's to punching. Get the videotape from Manga of him training for Pride 2, and see what an athletic phenom he is. He can hit.

And one last note for Jason: I still believe boxers hit hard. Have trained in Chinese MA and learned the complexities of what you refer to as reeling silk. Have sparred with classmates hitting full contact with these blows, and even been injured by them. Have fought challenge matches with kung fools who believed their complex biomechanics and profound sense of timing would be sufficient against some dumb old kenpo-kickboxing-wrassler. Have been the uke for Ed Parker at demos, where I've been palm-heeled in the chest so hard, I spit up blood with little chunks of lung tissue on the ride home (and he was only coming at me with about 1/4 strength). Still here, brain stem in tact; no nasal bones knocked up into my skull by magic palm heel strikes, etc. Have also sparred with guys like Pete Cunnigham and Blinky Rodriguez, and trained in Kyokushinkai (bare-knuckle knock down karate from Mas Oyama) for hundreds of hours. Spar really hard with your silk reelers; then spar really hard with Blinky; then try to take Rickson (or Renzo, or Ralph...he's small, so he'll be easy to beat), and tell me who you think hits harder.

Just a thought.

Dr. Dave:fart:

 

[James Kovacich]

Theres no need for it anymore but in the mid to later '90's there were underground fights in California and they were raided, thats how it made the news. There was a big for the MMA ring experience to be able to get in "one of the few" MMA events.

When they were were raided the police couldn't prove anything because they were signalled when the cops were coming in and the combatants would just start "wrestling."

Now theres plenty of "legal" venues and the underground does not exist except in someones mind. :wink2:

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

Theres no need for it anymore but in the mid to later '90's there were underground fights in California and they were raided, thats how it made the news. There was a big for the MMA ring experience to be able to get in "one of the few" MMA events.

When they were were raided the police couldn't prove anything because they were signalled when the cops were coming in and the combatants would just start "wrestling."

Now theres plenty of "legal" venues and the underground does not exist except in someones mind. :wink2:

Maybe they stopped up north, but they still go on down here. Not just in my mind, either. Drop by; we'll visit one of my hallucinations together. Law officials in Lake Forest, Mission Viejo, Laguna Hills are exploring charges against some of my imaginings...seems the idiots taped it, and the Law found the tape. Instant karma?

 

[James Kovacich]

Maybe they stopped up north, but they still go on down here. Not just in my mind, either. Drop by; we'll visit one of my hallucinations together. Law officials in Lake Forest, Mission Viejo, Laguna Hills are exploring charges against some of my imaginings...seems the idiots taped it, and the Law found the tape. Instant karma?

So I'm partially wrong. No big thing. WE, up here, haven't heard anything about it for a long time.

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

Actually, there was an article in the SF Chronicle a few months ago about a fight club in SF.

I don't question that underground fight-clubs exist. I do question the idea that participants are better fighters than Pro MMA fighters, that somebody died from a throat strike, or that there are no rules in these fights.

 

[WLMantisKid]

Just to clarify a couple of points from my own experience with training...

the relaxed bit -

Sifu taught us to keep our entire bodies relaxed during the course of anything, this is so that when we strike - the shock travels down our body and into the ground and since the ground isn't going anywhere... neither are we.

As for forms - Forms are very important, actually.

Stance transitions and weight transitions are trained when doing forms, they also take your basic fundamentals and makes them into a fluid combination so that you train your attacks, stances, and weight transitions all in one simple workout.

You may disagree or whatever, but that's what I was taught. And if it matters - I take Wah Lum Mantis under Sifu Sam Smith. And his Sifu is Pui Chan.

 

[Chicago Green Dragon]

OFK

What i was told was after the guy dropped like that and someone went over to him. They pronounced the winner, covered the guy on the ground with a sheet and my friends left as with the other people.
I dont know what happend to the guy.
This happend in the early 90's

Chicago Green Dragon

:asian:

Chicago Green Dragon:

OK, your friends may have gone to a real fight club. They may have seen some guys get knocked out, maybe hurt real bad.

But what happened when that guy died? Did they just stick him in a trash bag and throw him in the dumpster? Did they try and resuscitate him or give some kind of CPR? Did they call 911? Or, did they all just scatter and leave the building?

I assume you are fairly intelligent as you write well and have chosen to pursue martial arts and increase your knowledge via the internet and other means.

Please use your intelligence and question what people tell you about the martial arts. There are a lot of myths and legends. Question them all. Question what your friends tell you. Question what your instructor tells you. Question what you read on the internet. Question what you read from strangers like me on internet forums. Test everything to determine if it is really true. You must do this to rise above the myths and legends that enables nonsense and fraud to hide behind tradition and hierachical obedience. You must do this to get the most out of your martial arts training.

 

[James Kovacich]

Actually, there was an article in the SF Chronicle a few months ago about a fight club in SF.

I don't question that underground fight-clubs exist. I do question the idea that participants are better fighters than Pro MMA fighters, that somebody died from a throat strike, or that there are no rules in these fights.

I hear ya! The way I understood it was that everyone was trying to get the "ring exoerience and exposure" to enable them to come up in the MMA world.

As for them being better. Fat chance, or they'd already of made it to the main venues. :asian:

 

[MJS]

Just to clarify a couple of points from my own experience with training...

the relaxed bit -

Sifu taught us to keep our entire bodies relaxed during the course of anything, this is so that when we strike - the shock travels down our body and into the ground and since the ground isn't going anywhere... neither are we.

But, is it possible to do this while moving? During the course of a fight, you're not gonna be standing still.

As for forms - Forms are very important, actually.

Stance transitions and weight transitions are trained when doing forms, they also take your basic fundamentals and makes them into a fluid combination so that you train your attacks, stances, and weight transitions all in one simple workout.

I've been doing forms for many years, and yes, they do teach alot. However, constantly relying on preset moves to teach someone how to fight or to do SD, is, IMO, not the best way to acheive that goal.

Mike

 

[WLMantisKid]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

 

[Kembudo-Kai Kempoka]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

Welcome to the MA world, kid. I hope destiny is kind and your journey is a good one.

 

[Jason Davis]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

sounds like you might actually be learning something worth while stick with it and don't get discouraged by what "real fighters" tell you. listen to your sifu.

 

[MJS]

True, but I don't find it hard to keep my body relaxed at all, since it's been taught to me since day 1 (and im only 2 weeks in) I find it's extraordinarily easy to keep my body relaxed and calm.

It's true preset moves won't help - but Sifu also teaches us the applications of each move. He will have us go over forms and at each step show us how and where to use them. Various points on the body to strike etc. The forms are just a general motion to go through showing stances and general block points, the actual strike motions may be different but just knowing the general movement makes improvisation during a real SD situation much much easier.

Thats cool! You seem to be enjoying your art, and thats all that matters. I still think its gonna be hard to apply that tech on a moving person, but hey, if you can make it work, great.

As for the forms.....As I said, I have trained them and still do. I just dont rely on them for my fighting exp.

Mike

 

[MJS]

sounds like you might actually be learning something worth while stick with it and don't get discouraged by what "real fighters" tell you. listen to your sifu.

Well, nothing wrong with listening to how others train. Who knows, maybe by doing that, you might find something that you can add to your own training. I've never tried to get anyone to leave their base art, but I'm a huge fan of crosstraining. If you can take something from someone, and add it to your base art, to at the very least, make what you do better---then why not do it??

Mike

 

[WLMantisKid]

Thank you and I know it might be hard at first for me to apply it to actual moving targets, learning just the simple basis and how things work will aid me when I start sparring and seeing how to apply it without thinking. Then it will be time to start competing.

 

[7starmantis]

But, is it possible to do this while moving? During the course of a fight, you're not gonna be standing still.

I haven't read this entire thread, so I may be jumping in on the tail end of something, but I wanted to reply to this.

It is possible to stay "rooted" while moving. The mere mention of it seems to be an oxy-moron, but in true understanding of being rooted you understand it is not to be stationary at all. Having your balance centered and lower than your opponants even when transitioning from foot to foot or stance to stance can improve your ability to stay rooted. The relaxed bit is more for advanced practitioners to use their sensitivity and "feel".

7sm

 

[J-kid]

Just to clarify, I never said anything about their fighting ability I just said that the advertisement wasn't 100% accurate.

As far as their striking ability, it is lacking as far as the complete realm of martial arts is concerned. They strike hard but not as hard as they could if they trained to strike.

But I never said any of these guys weren’t skilled at what they do so maybe you should re-read what I wrote.

As far as “real street fighters” goes what exactly is a real street fighter? What is a fake street fighter?

As far as going back to my mat and practicing my “deadly kata technique”, you don’t know anything about my training so don’t make assumptions. I train a little Ju-jitsu and besides what art you train has nothing to do with your skill level. Example: I guarantee you that one of those “worlds strongest men” guys would be a very comparable adversary just because of their brut strength and they usually don’t have any martial arts training.

As far as training with people who are suited for these type events, I have. I’ll train with any body I really don’t care. There is nothing special about how they train. I train full contact, with no pads on, with no rules, and in the snow. So what is your point? Oh wait do I get a cookie because I endured some sort of hardship while I was training? Nope and I didn’t ask for one either. So why do they? Anyways no one in those competitions is really any more intimidating that anyone else. I personally have found that the softer spoken martial artist is usually the more intimidating ones.

As far as grappling goes I realize that it’s whole premise is that 90% of all fights end up on the ground; well guess what 100% start off standing up. You know it’s not that hard to sever a brain stem when someone shoots in on you. Example: take your two biggest fingers and slap the back of your neck. Did your eyes jiggle? If they did you hit your brain stem getting jiggled around a little bit.

Man you MMA guys are very testy sometimes. Maybe you should think about what you are saying to people sometimes you know just because “Bobby Joe Maniac” can put you in a submission hold and hit you a full 40 times before you get knocked out don’t think that someone else can’t do 1,000,000 times better, just because someone doesn’t participate in MMA tournaments that they can’t you will be in for a serious rude awakening when you start a fight at a bar with some one at a bar who has perfected the “deadly kata technique.” Just because you don’t know anything about a particular MA don’t think that it is weak. Some people are still trained the traditional way which is way harder that anything those “no holds barred” fighter go through.

Thank you very much for having such an open mind :asian:

Oh yeah by the way shaolin tiger works really good against grapplers or anyone who tries to grab you for that matter. just an FYI for anyone who cares

Ok i hope your kidding on this post, if not your real stupid.

 

[Matt Bernius]

anyways boxers don't strike hard either.

Uggg... brain about to explode from this statement. Don't know where to begin (even from a traditional martial arts point of view).

Ok. Yeah, I knew iron palm, fa jing was coming in there. But that form of striking, even the one inch punch is funcitonally so different and tactical from continual striking that it's pretty much not worth comparing.

Here's my suggestion, and I mean it, before posting something so mind bogglingly ignorant get in the ring with a boxer. Just for a bit. You're going to find out that they're using much of the same techniques to generate power as in the traditional martial arts.

Seriously, statements like the one above rob any credibility your argument might have. Especially with people who have crossed trained and experienced other art (and not formed biased sterotypes).

- Matt