UFC and such...

[MJS]

I know exactly what your saying, a form/kata is deffinatly a set series of moves, however so is training for a UFC event. This is not the thread to get into the "How could forms be usefull" argument. What I'm saying is that your contradicting your own statements. Your talking of training for a UFC type event and then in the same breath saying forms are bad. Your doing the same thing in both of them, and thank you for so adamantly making my point for me. In your last quote you say that a set series of techniques cannot help you fight, yet your talking about the superiority of training for a UFC event which uses only a preset series of techniques. Then you say its ok that UFC guys dont practice these "other" techniques because they are easy and anyone can do them, and they can do them in a fight if needed without practicing them. I think you should talk to experienced MAist who have defended themselves on the street many times, they will all tell you that you fight the way you train. If you don't train for a certain technique, trying to do it in a fight could very well be detrimental to your health.

Doing forms and training for the UFC are the same? How do you figure that? There is much more aliveness in the UFC than in forms. You still seem to be avoiding my question too, so I'll ask it again. How do you know how a MMA trains?? How do you know that he doesnt have a prior background in another art? Also, as I've said before, doing a jab or groin kick doesnt take much thinking. I think you should talk to a MMA fighter and ask about their prior background. There is another thread here talking about the same thing. I think its in the gen. MA part. Another discussion about the UFC. As for kicks...well, Gracie has used them in his fights many times. Hmm...tells me something there. Let me give you an example of preset. In a kata, all of the moves are done at a certain time and place. Its basically fighting an imaginary opp. who is standing in just the right spot, throwing just the right attack. In the MMA, sure they have there set of armbars, chokes, etc, but they are NOT done in any special order. I think you're getting a little confused here.

I'm not obsessed, I'm just staying on topic. This thread is about UFC type events, thats why I'm talking about UFC type events. *wow*
Now you've just agreed with me again, street vs UFC are two completely different things. Now your saying therre is nothing saying a UFC guy couldn't do different techniques on the street. Yes, there background as you mentioned, is training for the UFC event. That does not include said techniques. If you seriously think that a fighter training for a specific UFC event is going to spend time practicing techniques outside of the set rules of UFC, you are mistaken. It would be a huge waste of time for them. They need to be spending every moment of training on what they will need in the ring. This is the same way that you should be training for only the things you could use in the street. The difference is just that one includes many more techniques than the other. If you don't agree with me, just take a look at your next quote, you agree there.

And there you go again, misreading what I'm saying. Please dont twist what I say around. There BG is UFC? BUT WHAT ABOUT PRIOR TRAINING?????? Eric Paulson has trained in a few different arts, but competes in MMA. So are you gonna say that he cant do any eye jab/groin kick?

See, you agree that in training for a UFC type event you train in those techniques available for use in said event. This does not include some of the mentioned techniques. Now here is where the contradiction hits its high point. "Again, do you know what they would do on the street?" Well, since I thought we agreed that you fight like you train, then I can say that in a true self defense situation they would most likely use what they trained in. I'm not saying you can't do any moves other than what you train specifically for, but I'm saying if you don't train for every move for SD, you could seriously wound your chances of survival. Now, here is the next part, "Do you think that hed bite or do groin shots in a bar fight? I'm sure he would. As I've said before, it doest take a rocket scientist to do an eye jab." Yet, I guess your of the opinion that it does take a rocket scientist to do an armbar? See, what I'm saying is train for ALL possible attacks and defenses. This includes biting, eye gouging, joint breaking, stabbing, shooting, being attacked with a used toilet brush....
In any event, certain techniques will be left out. Training for pure SD doesn't. Thats all I'm saying, any event even those like UFC are still leaving out pure SD techniques that could save your life on the street.

And I say AGAIN..how do you know what their prior exp is? Why dont you do a little research and then let me know. Again, you avoid the question. Why is that?? Doing an armbar is much more complex than an eye jab, and I'll prove it to you. I asked my wife, who has NO MA exp. at all, how she would jab someone in the eyes. She took 2 fingers and poked towards my eyes. Regardless of how she did it, the fact remains that she DID do an eye jab. Now, if I asked her to do an armbar, shed look at me like, "What the hell are you talking about?"

You make it sound like if you were attacked by a grappler that they wouldnt know what to do against your "Deadly" techs. If you're assuming that they cant bite, scratch, kick, etc. then you're sadly mistaken.

Mike

7sm[/QUOTE]

 

[MJS]

Thats fair, my only response is that your incorrect about CMA not using grappling. Its normally not taught because of one simply reason, student quit. See, grappling is not touched on until far advanced techniques, because you have to learn some basics skills first. To say CMA are void of grappling is to say all MMA are void of teeth. Some my be missing a few, but some have all of them and they are in good shape. I know, stupidest example ever, but it makes my point. CMA are full of grappling you only have to get your skill level to that point in feel and yielding an such to actually be effecient at it. But when someone gets to that point, watch out, they are extremely effecient at it.

7sm

And, just like in Kenpo, there is some grappling. There is grappling in many arts, but most of it is the standing type, which can be referred to as a choke or a grab. What is the extent of the grappling in the CMA??

Mike

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

I've been quietly lurking on this thread for some time. Unbelievable.

7StarMantis: I have to say you are living in some kind of 1970's Qui Chang Kane dream world. So many of your basic assumptions are so wrong...I just don't know where to begin. MJS has been doing it pretty clearly, but you just aren't getting it. Let me just pick a few easy ones.

1) Most MMA fighters spend their training time learning techniques from boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, judokas, and Jiu Jitsu fighters. Most MMA fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques to draw from than those who train in only one (or one type of) martial art.

2) Most MMA fighters spend their time sparring against partners who can choose to attack or defend in any just about any way at any time. That is completely different than Kata practice. If you can't see that, then there is truly no hope for you.

3) Most MMA fighters have some type of prior training or street fighting experience. They don't wake up one morning and say "Gee whiz, I've never been in a fight and I've never taken a martial arts lesson, not even when I was a kid, now I think I'll become a pro-fighter." Most MMA fighters can kick to the head--don't you think they can kick to the groing too? Most MMA fighters can punch to the head-don't you think they can poke you in the eye or hit you in the throat too?

You obviously haven't taken any time to go research any of this, read anything about MMA or Jiu Jitsu or visited or trained with any MMA fighters. I could go on and on and on poking holes in your antiquated assumptions, but I am sure you won't listen to me either.

 

[7starmantis]

Doing forms and training for the UFC are the same? How do you figure that? There is much more aliveness in the UFC than in forms. You still seem to be avoiding my question too, so I'll ask it again. How do you know how a MMA trains?? How do you know that he doesnt have a prior background in another art? Also, as I've said before, doing a jab or groin kick doesnt take much thinking. I think you should talk to a MMA fighter and ask about their prior background. There is another thread here talking about the same thing. I think its in the gen. MA part. Another discussion about the UFC. As for kicks...well, Gracie has used them in his fights many times. Hmm...tells me something there. Let me give you an example of preset. In a kata, all of the moves are done at a certain time and place. Its basically fighting an imaginary opp. who is standing in just the right spot, throwing just the right attack. In the MMA, sure they have there set of armbars, chokes, etc, but they are NOT done in any special order. I think you're getting a little confused here.

Lets see, I didn't say doing forms and training for a UFC type event were the same, talk about twisting words. What I said was that they are both training in a preset series of techniques. If you can't agree with that we should stop this discussion now. Your talking about training for a specific event so prior training isn't what we are adressing. Just because I once took Aikido means I can use all aikido techniques in any fight I'm in for the rest of my life? I did answer your question several times but your not getting it. Let me try to phrase it monosyllabically enough for you to understand it. I'm refering to present training. Past training has no bearing on what we are discussing. You said this was about training for a specific event ("If I was going to be training for a MMA event..."), if thats the case your training that you do presently is all your taking into that event. Your past training from 8 years back when you did a seminar isn't going to be considered IMO.
This kicks thing? What are you talking about? Who said anything about kicks? Kicks are used in UFC events, what does that have to do with anything? Groiin kicks are one thing, but thats not the issue here.

There BG is UFC? BUT WHAT ABOUT PRIOR TRAINING?????? Eric Paulson has trained in a few different arts, but competes in MMA. So are you gonna say that he cant do any eye jab/groin kick?

So your saying your past training, which you no longer practice is actually going to be usefull in a UFC type event? I think you are horribly mistaken. Past experience is good, but if you don't currently train a technique, your going to loose effectivness with it, period. Is your questioned answered yet? Should I repeat it? We are talking about current training. If you practice some of your prior training in your getting ready for the UFC event, then that isn't prior training its current training, isn't it.

You make it sound like if you were attacked by a grappler that they wouldnt know what to do against your "Deadly" techs. If you're assuming that they cant bite, scratch, kick, etc. then you're sadly mistaken.

Talk about twisting someone's words around! I actually train with grapplers twice a week. These are guys who train only in BJJ, Jujistsu, and Aikido. Actually one of them used to train with the Lion's Den in Dallas Texas, that give you some type of credidation? It shouldn't, but I'm sure it does. I never said any of "my" techniques were deadly. In fact, I've never said anything even close to me being able to fight against a MMA, or even anyting about my own training. Lets not degress to this type of arguing.

1) Most MMA fighters spend their training time learning techniques from boxers, kickboxers, wrestlers, judokas, and Jiu Jitsu fighters. Most MMA fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques to draw from than those who train in only one (or one type of) martial art.

That is the height of assumptions. I don't disagree that MMA train in these types of systems. Fact is, we are talking about UFC type events and to say in that event, the fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques than any MAist is just simply wishful thinking on your part. Most MMA say the beauty of thier training is that its simplistic and refined, your saying its more complicated and full? strange.

2) Most MMA fighters spend their time sparring against partners who can choose to attack or defend in any just about any way at any time. That is completely different than Kata practice. If you can't see that, then there is truly no hope for you.

Your explination of training sound remarkably like mine, and I'm a "TMA" by your standards. I agree that it is completely differnet from Kata/Form, I believe I've said that about 4 or 5 times in my last posts. Should I find them all and post them? I'm the one who said it first in this thread actually. Your not making sense man. We aren't discussing forms vs MMA, thats a different thread altogether. I'm saying they can compliment each other, yoru saying they can't, thats fine.

3) Most MMA fighters have some type of prior training or street fighting experience. They don't wake up one morning and say "Gee whiz, I've never been in a fight and I've never taken a martial arts lesson, not even when I was a kid, now I think I'll become a pro-fighter." Most MMA fighters can kick to the head--don't you think they can kick to the groing too? Most MMA fighters can punch to the head-don't you think they can poke you in the eye or hit you in the throat too?

You obviously haven't taken any time to go research any of this, read anything about MMA or Jiu Jitsu or visited or trained with any MMA fighters. I could go on and on and on poking holes in your antiquated assumptions, but I am sure you won't listen to me either.

WEll, I would listen to you had you not made a list of fals assumptions about my training or what I was saying about training. I'll say it again, this is not a thread on forms vs MMA. I actually train with several MMAist. Surprise, you were wrong in yoru assumption again! I train for san shou which is full contact fighting with fewer rules than UFC. Surprise again! I actually train with a buddy in grappling and BJJ, once more a surprise I'm sure.
Let me try this again...

MY POINT IS THAT UFC EVENTS ARE A PRESET SERIES OF TECHNIQUES JUST LIKE FORMS/KATA. TRUE SD TRAINING SHOULD NOT CONSIST OF ONLY EITHER OF THESE. That help? I've been saying that from the beginning.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

And, just like in Kenpo, there is some grappling. There is grappling in many arts, but most of it is the standing type, which can be referred to as a choke or a grab. What is the extent of the grappling in the CMA??

Mike

ACtually the extent of grappling in 7* mantis surprised me quite a bit. We don't do it early on because ew want you to learn some basic skills first, but once into it there is quite a big focus on grappling. We grapple more than any school in my area, I can tell you that much. I actually do a bit more than most in my school as I do some training with grapplers. The principles are the same standing as they are on the ground in mantis.

7sm

 

[MJS]

ACtually the extent of grappling in 7* mantis surprised me quite a bit. We don't do it early on because ew want you to learn some basic skills first, but once into it there is quite a big focus on grappling. We grapple more than any school in my area, I can tell you that much. I actually do a bit more than most in my school as I do some training with grapplers. The principles are the same standing as they are on the ground in mantis.

7sm

Can you give some specific details about the grappling?

Mike

 

[MJS]

Lets see, I didn't say doing forms and training for a UFC type event were the same, talk about twisting words. What I said was that they are both training in a preset series of techniques. If you can't agree with that we should stop this discussion now. Your talking about training for a specific event so prior training isn't what we are adressing. Just because I once took Aikido means I can use all aikido techniques in any fight I'm in for the rest of my life? I did answer your question several times but your not getting it. Let me try to phrase it monosyllabically enough for you to understand it. I'm refering to present training. Past training has no bearing on what we are discussing. You said this was about training for a specific event ("If I was going to be training for a MMA event..."), if thats the case your training that you do presently is all your taking into that event. Your past training from 8 years back when you did a seminar isn't going to be considered IMO.

You said preset moves and that is INCORRECT! How are they preset? I gave my example of what it is, why dont you provide one of yours? And past training does play a part cuz you said that on the street, they wouldnt be able to use an eye jab, etc. Now you're changing the subject to JUST present training, when prior to this post, we were both talking about street and UFC.

This kicks thing? What are you talking about? Who said anything about kicks? Kicks are used in UFC events, what does that have to do with anything? Groiin kicks are one thing, but thats not the issue here.

Kics are used but NOT to the groin. That is the point OFK and I are TRYING to make to YOU. Just cuz they kick to the head, does NOT mean that they cant kick to the groin.

So your saying your past training, which you no longer practice is actually going to be usefull in a UFC type event? I think you are horribly mistaken. Past experience is good, but if you don't currently train a technique, your going to loose effectivness with it, period. Is your questioned answered yet? Should I repeat it? We are talking about current training. If you practice some of your prior training in your getting ready for the UFC event, then that isn't prior training its current training, isn't it.

Dude-I've been doing Kenpo for 17yrs. Just cuz I dont train it everyday, does NOT mean that I can't fall back onto that training. Will it be as crisp? Probably not, but it is not like you're gonna forget 17yrs of training.

Talk about twisting someone's words around! I actually train with grapplers twice a week. These are guys who train only in BJJ, Jujistsu, and Aikido. Actually one of them used to train with the Lion's Den in Dallas Texas, that give you some type of credidation? It shouldn't, but I'm sure it does. I never said any of "my" techniques were deadly. In fact, I've never said anything even close to me being able to fight against a MMA, or even anyting about my own training. Lets not degress to this type of arguing.

You said that while the grappler shot in, you'd do a thumb to the eye. And how do you know that you'll be able to pull that off, was all I was saying. If you look back in your postings, you make hints to being able to easily defeat a grappler cuz they dont train with eye jabs, etc.

That is the height of assumptions. I don't disagree that MMA train in these types of systems. Fact is, we are talking about UFC type events and to say in that event, the fighters have a larger repertoire of techniques than any MAist is just simply wishful thinking on your part. Most MMA say the beauty of thier training is that its simplistic and refined, your saying its more complicated and full? strange.

BUt you STILL AVOID THE QUESTION. Go back and do some research on their background. Have you done that yet?

Your explination of training sound remarkably like mine, and I'm a "TMA" by your standards. I agree that it is completely differnet from Kata/Form, I believe I've said that about 4 or 5 times in my last posts. Should I find them all and post them? I'm the one who said it first in this thread actually. Your not making sense man. We aren't discussing forms vs MMA, thats a different thread altogether. I'm saying they can compliment each other, yoru saying they can't, thats fine.

Forms are not gonna help you fight.

MY POINT IS THAT UFC EVENTS ARE A PRESET SERIES OF TECHNIQUES JUST LIKE FORMS/KATA. TRUE SD TRAINING SHOULD NOT CONSIST OF ONLY EITHER OF THESE. That help? I've been saying that from the beginning.

NO THEY ARE NOT PRESET!!! How do you figure that??? They have a set of locks, chokes, etc. but THEY ARE NOT DONE IN A PRESET FASHION. IN A KATA, YOU NEED TO DO ALL THE MOVES EXACTLY IN THE SAME ORDER OF THE KATA, WHEN YOU'RE TRAINING A KATA!!

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

You said preset moves and that is INCORRECT! How are they preset? I gave my example of what it is, why dont you provide one of yours? And past training does play a part cuz you said that on the street, they wouldnt be able to use an eye jab, etc. Now you're changing the subject to JUST present training, when prior to this post, we were both talking about street and UFC.

This is getting quite redundant. Let me try it this way.
1. UFC events do not allow certain techniques.
2. If UFC events do not allow certain techniques then therefore they only allow a certain database of techniques.
3. Since UFC allows only a certain database of techniques which are est prior to a fight, then UFC events only allow a preset (pre meaning before, and set meaning allowed) amount of techniques.

I'm confused as to your non-preset example, what would that have been? I guess I could give you an example of a move that is not allowed in UFC, would that answer your example question? OK, lets say elbow to the back of the head. That is not allowed, there is an example for you.

Now, let me clarify one thing. I never said on the street a UFC fighter wouldn't be able to use an eye jab. I did not say, maybe you should re-read this thread. If you continue to twist my words around we'll be done discussing. What I did say is that if you do not train in a certain technique (an eye gouge being one of those illustrius examples) then you will not be as effective with it if faced with a SD situation. What I said was that the UFC and Forms training are both not true SD training. That is the bottom line, if you believe otherwise that is fine, you have the right to be wrong.

Dude-I've been doing Kenpo for 17yrs. Just cuz I dont train it everyday, does NOT mean that I can't fall back onto that training. Will it be as crisp? Probably not, but it is not like you're gonna forget 17yrs of training.

Your missing the point. Not being as crisp is the point. You and I agree here.

You said that while the grappler shot in, you'd do a thumb to the eye. And how do you know that you'll be able to pull that off, was all I was saying. If you look back in your postings, you make hints to being able to easily defeat a grappler cuz they dont train with eye jabs, etc.

Last chance to stop misquoting me. Any technique that I do against a grappler would be done in accordance with the situation, and the only way I would know to do it would be because I've done it a million times in training. Dont try and quote people's "hints" they tend to be differnet than what you think they are.

More later.....
7sm

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

7 Star Mantis:

You are misunderstanding the definition of pre-set. By pre-set, Mike (and I) mean a pre-set order. For instance, let us assign each movement a letter like A, B, C, etc. Preset is: doing A, B, C, D, E, etc. in order with specific timing and positioning. Two-man moves can be preset as well: you do A, I do B, then you do C, then I do D. Kata is pre-set.

UFC and MMA are not preset. If you do A, then I can do B or C or D or E or F or G or H, etc., etc., but not W, X, Y, and Z because they are illegal. Order is not preset, position is not preset, and timing is not pre-set.

As far as eye gouging and groin kicking go...If that is the most important advantage your training gives you...then your training is woefully incomplete.

 

[MJS]

This is getting quite redundant. Let me try it this way.

1. UFC events do not allow certain techniques.
2. If UFC events do not allow certain techniques then therefore they only allow a certain database of techniques.
3. Since UFC allows only a certain database of techniques which are est prior to a fight, then UFC events only allow a preset (pre meaning before, and set meaning allowed) amount of techniques.

One min. you're talking about just the techs in the UFC and in the next you're talking about both street and UFC. I realize that in the UFC there are things that they can/cant do. Hey, we agree!LOL! My point is, is that regardless of what they do in the UFC, it does not mean that they can't bite or eye gouge on the street. I think I gave a good example using my wife, who has no MA exp at all.

I'm confused as to your non-preset example, what would that have been? I guess I could give you an example of a move that is not allowed in UFC, would that answer your example question? OK, lets say elbow to the back of the head. That is not allowed, there is an example for you.

See OKF's repsonse below. I'll say the same thing. In a kata, you have a bunch of moves. The moves MUST be done in the exact order, otherwise you're not doing the kata the way it was designed. EX-Move A,B,C, etc. The NHB fighters have a huge assortment of moves, chokes, etc. They dont not do those moves in any preset way. Again, I refer you to OFKs post.

Now, let me clarify one thing. I never said on the street a UFC fighter wouldn't be able to use an eye jab. I did not say, maybe you should re-read this thread. If you continue to twist my words around we'll be done discussing. What I did say is that if you do not train in a certain technique (an eye gouge being one of those illustrius examples) then you will not be as effective with it if faced with a SD situation. What I said was that the UFC and Forms training are both not true SD training. That is the bottom line, if you believe otherwise that is fine, you have the right to be wrong.

I have realized for a LONG time that the UFC/Street are 2 different things. My point that I was trying to make is that just cuz you cant do certain things in the cage, does not mean that the fighters cant do them on the street. Again, I suggest you look at some of the fighters backgrounds to support your claims.

Your missing the point. Not being as crisp is the point. You and I agree here.

So are you saying that just cuz I havent done my yellow belt techs. that I'm not gonna be able to use them in a fight? My point is, is that if someone does something long enough, its gonna be so engrained that it'll be almost impossible to forget.

Last chance to stop misquoting me. Any technique that I do against a grappler would be done in accordance with the situation, and the only way I would know to do it would be because I've done it a million times in training. Dont try and quote people's "hints" they tend to be differnet than what you think they are.

So you're basically saying that just because you've done the tech a million times, that you'll be a sure shot to make it work against any grappler?

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

7 Star Mantis:

You are misunderstanding the definition of pre-set. By pre-set, Mike (and I) mean a pre-set order. For instance, let us assign each movement a letter like A, B, C, etc. Preset is: doing A, B, C, D, E, etc. in order with specific timing and positioning. Two-man moves can be preset as well: you do A, I do B, then you do C, then I do D. Kata is pre-set.

UFC and MMA are not preset. If you do A, then I can do B or C or D or E or F or G or H, etc., etc., but not W, X, Y, and Z because they are illegal. Order is not preset, position is not preset, and timing is not pre-set.

I hear what your saying and I think you are correct except that your misunderstanding my point. Let's define preset; "To set beforehand; adj : set in advance; "a preset plan of action"; "at a predetermined time"" Now that we have that defined, lets define what we are dicussing. The topic is "UFC and such..." the topic being about CMAist in UFC events.

Now, with those definitions lets layout what we are dicussing. We are dicussing only UFC events not MMA as a whole or MMA fighters, or any of the other things being brought up, only UFC Events. Now, using the definition of preset we listed earlier, we can see that UFC type fighting events are actually preset with certain techniques. I see what you guys mean about the order of forms but your mistaken a bit about forms training, I'll get to that in a moment. What I had said, is that niether UFC event training, nor forms training alone will give a realistic training for true self defense situations. Remember, lets seperate UFC events and MMA as a whole here. We are talking about UFC Events.

Now, the forms training is diferent than you are thinking, at least the way I do it. Your simple forms by yourself are preset, you are correct. Forms training to be realistic involves partner training where you use the form your working on and train the way you explained MMA with the A,B,C,D, or E scenario. Then you take all of your forms and you train that way including every technique you know, thats called Chi Sou. Then you step it up and go faster and faster, with more and more contact until you are using it full speed and power. Simple forms training alone is not eough however, and I've said that through this whole thread.

As far as eye gouging and groin kicking go...If that is the most important advantage your training gives you...then your training is woefully incomplete.

Thats my point. I don't know how this whole eye gouging and groin kick got isolated, what I was talking about was simply techniques not allowed in UFC. Here is a list someone posted earlier:
Butting with the head.
Eye gouging of any kind.
Biting.
Hair pulling.
Fish hooking.
Groin attacks of any kind.
Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
Small joint manipulation.
Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh.
Grabbing the clavicle.
Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
Stomping a grounded opponent.
Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
These are all just examples of the type of fighting I was refering to. If your advantage your resting on is any technique, I think your in for some major trouble. Your advantage comes from your training and hard work, not some magical deathly technique.

7sm

 

[7starmantis]

My point that I was trying to make is that just cuz you cant do certain things in the cage, does not mean that the fighters cant do them on the street. Again, I suggest you look at some of the fighters backgrounds to support your claims.

Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying what they do in the ring, I'm saying what you train for. If you are training for a UFC event your not going to waist time trianing tehcniques you will not use in that event. What I'm sayin is that is not realistic enough training for true self defense. Seems like I've said this before.

So are you saying that just cuz I havent done my yellow belt techs. that I'm not gonna be able to use them in a fight? My point is, is that if someone does something long enough, its gonna be so engrained that it'll be almost impossible to forget.

So you're basically saying that just because you've done the tech a million times, that you'll be a sure shot to make it work against any grappler?

Mike

I wasn't going to grace this with a response, but I think I want to say a few things.
1.) Yes, I am saying that if you don't practice certain techniques you will loose effectivness with them. Doing somethign long enough will not keep it fresh in your movement, to rely on something you did along time ago many times is not wise.

2.) Your tendency to jump to conclusions and twist my words is getting obnoxious. I didn't say anythin was a sure shot man, in fact I said nothing is a sure shot. Why all this aignst about me vs grapplers? What do grapplers have to do with this? Are you assuming I'm not a grappler myself? What makes a person a grappler? Is it specific systems? What I'm saying is that techniques done in realistic trianing are more likely to be usefull ina pure self defense situation.

7sm

 

[MJS]

Your missing what I'm saying. I'm not saying what they do in the ring, I'm saying what you train for. If you are training for a UFC event your not going to waist time trianing tehcniques you will not use in that event. What I'm sayin is that is not realistic enough training for true self defense. Seems like I've said this before.

Yes, I realize what you're saying. I think that we have all realized that we are separating the street vs ring techs, and what is used and what is not used. The point that I was simply making, is that you dont need to train for an eye jab, and again, I refer back to my wife. Sure, an eye jab is NOT used in the ring, but again, I also go back to my statement of, how can we assume that the ring fighters have no prior training? Look at Chuck Lidell. He trained in Kenpo. I think hes capable of doing an eye jab.

I wasn't going to grace this with a response, but I think I want to say a few things.
1.) Yes, I am saying that if you don't practice certain techniques you will loose effectivness with them. Doing somethign long enough will not keep it fresh in your movement, to rely on something you did along time ago many times is not wise.

Funny you should say that. Let me tell you a little story. I started training in the Villari system when I was 12 yo. I trained in that until I was at the Brown Belt level and then made the change to Parker Kenpo. Even though I dont train the Villari material, I still remember all of the techs. and kata that I was taught, in addition to the Parker material that I learned. Of course, like anything, the more you train something the better you'll be, but I dont think that you'll totally forget how to do something.

2.) Your tendency to jump to conclusions and twist my words is getting obnoxious. I didn't say anythin was a sure shot man, in fact I said nothing is a sure shot. Why all this aignst about me vs grapplers? What do grapplers have to do with this? Are you assuming I'm not a grappler myself? What makes a person a grappler? Is it specific systems? What I'm saying is that techniques done in realistic trianing are more likely to be usefull ina pure self defense situation.

OH, sorry to hear ya say that about me getting obnoxious. Actually, I was kinda thinking that you were being pretty stubborn yourself, but oh well! As for you and grappling---I was simply referring to your statement about the eye jab while the grappler was going in for the takedown. As for your grappling exp---yes, you mentioned that you grappled.

Mike

 

[7starmantis]

Yes, I realize what you're saying. I think that we have all realized that we are separating the street vs ring techs, and what is used and what is not used. The point that I was simply making, is that you dont need to train for an eye jab, and again, I refer back to my wife. Sure, an eye jab is NOT used in the ring, but again, I also go back to my statement of, how can we assume that the ring fighters have no prior training? Look at Chuck Lidell. He trained in Kenpo. I think hes capable of doing an eye jab. {/QUOTE]

Lets stop using the example of eye jab. See I simply used that one technique as an example of the techniques I was refering to. I can see now that we simply differ in training mentalities. I'm of the belief that you should train as realisticly as possible, utilizing every technique that is usefull and possible. I see we differ there, and thats ok, we cna agree to disagree.

What your wrong in assuming is that I said UFC fighters have no prior background. I didn't say that and I don't believe that. Let me try once again. I'm not talking about prior training. What I started this whole discussion about was your statement of;

If I was going to be training for a MMA event, why the hell would I waste time doing forms, when I should be in the ring.

That is what I'm talking about when I used the example of an eye gouge. You said it yourself, why would you waist your time practicing something not usefull for the event. What I'm refering to is the training for an event. If you train for just UFC events you lack a realistic property in your training. If you train simply in forms you lack a realistic property in your training. Thats the point I've been trying to get across.

Funny you should say that. Let me tell you a little story. I started training in the Villari system when I was 12 yo. I trained in that until I was at the Brown Belt level and then made the change to Parker Kenpo. Even though I dont train the Villari material, I still remember all of the techs. and kata that I was taught, in addition to the Parker material that I learned. Of course, like anything, the more you train something the better you'll be, but I dont think that you'll totally forget how to do something.

Ok, let me give you a story, I started in kung fu at age 9, did it for about 6 years. Then in high school I started JKD and did it for almost 7 years. Now after studying mantis for several years I can tell you I havent forgotten my JKD training, but to use its techniques in place of mantis would cause me to most likely loose a fight as I'm currently trained in my mantis techniqus. Its not that they are so different, but it would take a bit of work to sit and try to remember a certain technique from JKD rather than just go with what was in my body. That helps your point, but what I'm sayingis those dragon kung fu years form when I was 9, they don't have anything to do with the way I fight now. So, I agree with you, you will not totally forget how to do something (you can if its been quite a while) but you will loose effectivness at it and speed, and those are what you want in a SD situation.

OH, sorry to hear ya say that about me getting obnoxious. Actually, I was kinda thinking that you were being pretty stubborn yourself, but oh well! As for you and grappling---I was simply referring to your statement about the eye jab while the grappler was going in for the takedown. As for your grappling exp---yes, you mentioned that you grappled.

Listen, let me say it again so its not twisted. I'm not saying your obnoxious man, just your tendency to jump to conclusions and make false assumptions, thats all. I re-read this thread as I wanted to make sure I'm not just being stuborn. I really don't think I am, I think you are simply not understanding me clearly. What I said in my staement about being far superior to all grapplers was simply an example of techniques that can be used against UFC fighters who train simply for UFC events. There are a list of techniques forbidden by UFC, I posted them a few posts up, take a look. See, your taking my statements as me saying I can beat grapplers. In truth the person going to win any encounter is the one who trains harder and more realistic; grappler or not.

7sm

 

[someguy]

So you actually put out peoples eyes?
I know I'm takeing that quite aways away from what you said but still.
To fight even if its unrealistic so some extent is it worse than to not fight at all?

 

[Old Fat Kenpoka]

So you actually put out peoples eyes?
I know I'm takeing that quite aways away from what you said but still.
To fight even if its unrealistic so some extent is it worse than to not fight at all?

Someguy: you got it! The fundamental question of martial arts training is this:

which is more realistic?
* to train with limited techniques executed full-contact against a resisting partner or
* to train with a wide variety of techniques that cannot be executed at all because they are too dangerous for the training partners.

 

[7starmantis]

Someguy: you got it! The fundamental question of martial arts training is this:

which is more realistic?
* to train with limited techniques executed full-contact against a resisting partner or
* to train with a wide variety of techniques that cannot be executed at all because they are too dangerous for the training partners.

I don't know any techniques that cannot be executed at all. Even eye gouges can be executed if your partner is wearing protection. Sure you can't execute a full power knee kick, but I don't think thats the point, you practice the full power knee kick on the bags.

I see your point, but I don't think I agree. The first scenario you mentioned still leaves you with a limited amount of techniques. If you are creative and serious you can find a way to train these "dangerous" techniques, that is if they are usefull.

7sm

 

[InvisibleFist]

Someguy: you got it! The fundamental question of martial arts training is this:

which is more realistic?
* to train with limited techniques executed full-contact against a resisting partner or
* to train with a wide variety of techniques that cannot be executed at all because they are too dangerous for the training partners.

Thats an interesting dichotomy. Surely there's a middle ground?

What most schools do is BOTH...train with full resistance using the techniques that are safe (sparring).

And train WITHOUT full resistance in the techs that aren't. (Drills)

 

[Infrazael]

I hear of all these Thai boxers and boxers etc talking about Shadowboxing.

Then I was analyzing shadowboxing vs. my CMA forms (I'll stick to CLF since I can't speak for other peoples' styles). . . . . and then I realized something peculiar.

Shadowboxing - not a prearranged series of attacks? I'll use the boxer for example. Boxers do the following:

1. Weaving, and they are very good at it.
2. Hooks, jabs, crosses, uppercuts. Variations of those techniques, mostly.
3. Many of their combinations are extremely repetitive. Jab, jab, hook, cross, etc. Mixed together with excellent weaving. . . . . . that is their "shadowboxing."

Then I analyzed Choy Lay Fut's form Sui Mui Fah (small plum blossom fist set). First of all, CLF fighters don't learn weaving off the bat. Remove that from the list. . . .

Second, CLF fighters don't obsess themselves with nothing but jabs and crosses. What we obsesses ourselves with are the 10 seeds and animal forms.

Thus, in a boxer's so called "shadowboxing" they will weave, jab, hook, then cross as an example, all the while using a boxer's stance. In CLF, our "form" will be a Sao Choy, gwa choy, fan jong, kup, then elbow, all done in CLF stances.

Therefore, my conclusion is that this "prearranged" set of attacks is present in every martial system, except perhaps excluding grappling like BJJ. However, the movement between systems are so different that it hardly seems a CMA form is even close to boxing shadowboxing.

My my 2 cents. . . . . . .

Peace.

 

[InvisibleFist]

The "straight blast gym" guy had an article on this very issue. He argues the contrary...shadowboxing is supposed to be practicing trhowing DIFFERENT techniques, and AVOID falling into set patterns which make a boxer predicitable. Apparently this is a perrenial problem for boxers, to fall into set patterns whch can be exploited by an opponent.