TSD and TKD

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by Manny, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Kingwood Texas
    My GM history is hard to follow, I have read where he came to the US in 1957 TSD/MDK, yet he had karate on the windows, called it taekwondo in the school, the older students called it MDK. He was friends with the General from the Korean War so he join ITF, then when the general wanted relations with North Korea he quit the ITF. He was a signature for the US to join WTF pictures of that and was the head coach for the first American team to South Korea in the early 1970's.
    From all the information I have gather, Jack Hwang was teaching TSD/MDK in the early 1970, and was just calling it Taekwondo
    The forms I learn were Pyung Ahn and Plagwae, is the best proof I was taught TSD/MDK and not TKD/MDK.
    He may have taught Taeguek and other TKD forms after I left, he also may have drop the MDK name after I left his school.
    Jack Hwang has passed away. Now his school is called Jack Hwang's Martial Arts and they teach Taekwondo. No mention of MDK.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Dirty Dog

    Dirty Dog MT Senior Moderator Staff Member

    • LifeTime Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Sep 3, 2009
    Messages:
    15,268
    Likes Received:
    3,471
    Trophy Points:
    308
    Location:
    Pueblo West, CO
    Those forms were used by pretty much all the Kwan, to some extent. But that was prior to the unification and implementation of the name TKD. Why? Because most of the founders had at least some of their training in Shotokan. After the development of the Palgwae forms, the Kwan that stayed with the KTA (the unification...) switched to those forms. And, eventually, the taegeuk forms, unless they split off prior to that time.
    Basically, if you learned the Pyung Ahn forms AFTER the unification, you were studying TSD, since GM HWANG, Kee, was the only major Kwan to split off (and he only took about 1/3 of the MDK with him) to continue teaching TSD. As far I have ever found, the only system using those forms AFTER the implementation of the Palgwae forms is Tang Soo Do (later renamed Soo Bahk Do) Moo Duk Kwan.
    And given that his Master was MDK, I think there's absolutely zero doubt that he was training in TSD.

    Old certs would be awesome (and awesome to see scans of...) but his instructor passed a few years ago.
    Bruce7, on a side note, I do have a copy of a photo with my KJN (GM Wang H "Bobby" Kim) and your Master. If memory serves, if was taken in the 70's. If you'd like a copy, PM me and I'll send it to you.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  3. kitkatninja

    kitkatninja Blue Belt

    Joined:
    May 7, 2012
    Messages:
    229
    Likes Received:
    44
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    UK
    That's cool :)
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,533
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Another way to view your lineage, tkd vs tsd. TSD guys were given a dan bon number. (this was exclusive to the MDK, or it was exclusive to the Hwang Ke lineage of the MDK.

    This was fought over in Korea, and after some court battles, the MDK/HWANG family retained ownership of the dan bon list. Other groups who had an incomplete danbon list were court order to cease and desist attempts to claim the dan bon list, and begin using their own lists/numbering system.
    Even the KKW had to let go of their danbon copy and begin a new list.

    So tkd guys almost never got a MDK dan bon.... except for those who earned their chodan prior to the unification and subsequent MDK split. (or in extremely rare cases they learned the mdk curriculum and tested out in the under the authority of tangsoo/subakdo side of MDK, but remained affiliated or under a TKD name/organization/association/hae.)
     
    Last edited: Dec 31, 2018
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Kingwood Texas
    Is their a website that has the MDK dan bon list. GM Jack Hwang was a black belt when he came to America in 1957, so should be on the list.
     
  6. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,335
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Southeast
    I am in the latter boat. I have both MDK and Kukkiwon certification. We still use Pyung Ahn poomsae as our first forms set.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,533
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    123
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Kingwood Texas
  9. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,533
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Number 8 or number 11 could be him.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. dvcochran

    dvcochran Master Black Belt

    • Supporting Member
    Joined:
    Nov 7, 2017
    Messages:
    1,335
    Likes Received:
    345
    Trophy Points:
    108
    Location:
    Southeast
  11. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,533
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    123
    the date he earned the first MDK dan.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Kingwood Texas
    I found more information from Jack Hwang: Taekwondo - USAdojo.com

    I was right about TSD, but may have been wrong about his low dan number for MDK.
    Jack Hwang studied Yun Moo Kwan before studying MDK.
    I know he came to America in 1957.
    I have read other articles that said he was a pioneer in American MDK.

    Jack Hwang was born on July 3, 1931 and he began his study of the Korean martial arts in 1941. His uncle, Soun Gyu Hwang, was head of the Pusan Police Force, and he was a big influence over Jack’s love of the martial arts and spurred him on in his training, requiring constant and intensive practice. In 1945 Jack Hwang began to train at the Yun Moo Kwan School in Pusan. From 1950 through 1955, Hwang utilized his skills in the Army of the Republic of South Korea, where, through his distinguished service, he achieved the rank of Captain.
    In 1957 Jack Hwang immigrated to the United States.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master of Arts

    Joined:
    Jul 18, 2015
    Messages:
    1,533
    Likes Received:
    355
    Trophy Points:
    123
    Yeah... no word back from the MDK on him. I think they may have just acknowledged his YMK chodan, rather having awarded it.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  14. Bruce7

    Bruce7 Blue Belt

    Joined:
    Nov 27, 2018
    Messages:
    240
    Likes Received:
    81
    Trophy Points:
    68
    Location:
    Kingwood Texas
    Thank you
     

Share This Page

Search tags for this page

tsd taekwondo