TSD and TKD

Discussion in 'Tang Soo Do' started by Manny, Aug 4, 2015.

  1. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    Was TKD in tghe early days a certain form of TSD? When I was a teen my sabonim told us that TSD was the old TKD form. I know both are korean martial arts and both are in some cases alike but don't know for sure.

    Manny
     
  2. reeskm

    reeskm Green Belt

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    Your sabonim is right. Tangsoodo was the commonly used word before Taekwondo existed.

    The name "Taekwondo" was proposed as a new name for "TangSooDo" and "KongSooDo" by General Choi Hong Hee (and possibly others in the Chung Do Kwan) in 1955. Before then, it did not exist.

    From 1955-1965 various high ranking Tangsoodo (or Kongsoodo) leaders tried to come up with a new name for Korean Karate or tangsoodo, because of its connection to China and Japan.

    So basically, Tangsoodo is the ancestor art to Taekwondo. The name was still being used into the 1970s and beyond by Korean and American instructors because many people don't know what Tangsoodo or Taekwondo is. But the western public knew exactly what "Karate" is!

    Even so, people still use the terms Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo today in Korea, but not very many people still do, unless they teach traditional Tangsoodo as it existed in the 1960s. If you learn the "Pyung-Ahn" forms as a gup student, you are learning Tangsoodo!

    Kongsoodo and Tangsoodo is Korean for the same Chinese characters as Karate (both Open Hand Way and China Tang Dynasty Hand Way).

    There is tons of info on the internet about this. It seems a lot of Taekwondo stylists are trying to get back to their roots of non-sport (martial) aspects of their arts and styles. The old Kwan system was full of beautiful traditions and aspects that were lost or started to fade when everybody was shooting for the Olypic dream in the 1980s.
     
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  3. dancingalone

    dancingalone Grandmaster

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    Tang Soo Do as a descriptive term is most closely linked with the Moo Duk Kwan and the Chung Do Kwan prior to the taekwondo unification movement. I'd argue that any kwan era curriculum that used the Japanese forms fits the moniker however.
     
  4. Manny

    Manny Senior Master

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    Thank you very much, the last paragraph is something I wish I could do, and yes back in the mid80's when I got inside TKD back in those days I did not knew a thing about TKD and so many people in my country that's why my sabonim's dojang adverise it as Korean Karate!

    El Manny
     
  5. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Yes and No.
    There were 5 main Kwans (Institutional Schools) and 4 Annex Kwans.
    There were a lot of martial arts (styles) being taught...

    Overtime the art that is presently called TKD, is a conglomeration, and also distillation or specialization of all of these arts.
    Yes, it started with a bit of Korean Karate, Aikido, Judo and ended up being something else altogether.

    Some history... (note... some of this is disputed)

    In 1959 General Choi petitioned the Ministry of Education and the Korea Amateur Sports Association to found a new organization. Due to his close ties to Korean President Rhee, Seung Man, the acceptance of this organization was virtually assured.

    General Choi coined the name Taekwondo and substantiated it in the minds of the Korean public by having the students of the art yell, "Tae Kwon," each time they executed a technique.

    Though there were several names considered, and extensive debate went on, particular at the hands of Kee, Hwang, the five primary kwans:

    Chung Do Kwan,
    Oh Do Kwan,
    Song Moo Kwan,
    Chang Moo Kwan,
    Ji Do Kwan, and
    Moo Duk Kwan

    came together and the name Taekwondo was finally accepted due to the fact that it closely reassembled the name of the ancient Korean martial art, Tae Kyon.

    As every Korean male was duty bound to serve in the military, they were each indoctrinated into the Taekwondo method of the martial arts. In 1959 the Korea Taekwondo Association was formalized.

    It was not until 16 May 1961, however, when President Rhee was overthrown by a military coup de tat that the leaders of the Korean martial arts would finally be forced to formalize into one body. In fact, it was Governmental Decree #6, of this coup, where it was detailed that all schools of the Korean martial arts must come together under one banner.

    The Korea Tae Soo Do Association
    Due to this decree, the leaders of the kwans again came together and attempted to formalize under one organization. Heated debated went on throughout 1961. The group emerged with the name the Korea Tae Soo Do Association.

    As was the case with the Korea Kong Soo Do Association, the primary concern was formalized teaching and promotion standards. To help to achieve this, an inspection team was sent up and deployed to the various kwans in order to propagate the fact that they must use standardized Hyung (forms) and Taeryun (free sparring) techniques.

    Though the Korea Tae Soo Do Association was the institution to lay the foundation for what was to become Taekwondo, there was still a large amount of infighting.

    Many of the advanced members did not like the fact that they were being dictated on how they must teach and advance their students. Again, at the forefront of this controversy was Hwang Kee. On 20 July 1962, Hwang Kee wrote his initial letter withdrawing Moo Duk Kwan from the organization.

    In is important to note that due to General Choi's close association with ousted President Rhee, (though he was instrument in the coup), he did not play an important role in the formation of this organization.

    In fact, though he once held the pivotal positions of Commander of the 6th Korean Army and Director of Intelligence, to name only two pivotal positions, he was extremely disliked by the new Korean President, Park, Chung Hee.

    General Choi attributes this to the fact that President Park did not like him because of the fact that he was once his superior officer. As such, Choi was forced to resign from the military and was sent to Malaysia in the capactiy of Ambassador.

    At this point, the integration of Korean politics entered into the realm of the martial arts again. The Korea Tae Soo Do Association remained without a president for approximately one year after it was founded. Then, General Choi, Myung Shin became its first president on 28 December 1962.

    The International Taekwondo Federation
    In 1965 General Choi returned from Malaysia to South Korea. Soon after that he was elected president of the Korea Tae Soo Do Association. He called together the General Assembly and proposed a vote to change the name of the organization back to the Korea Taekwondo Association. The name won by one vote.

    By 1966 General Choi had formed the International Taekwondo Federation to help Taekwondo spread across the globe. In that same year, due to fear of house arrest by President Park, he left South Korea, moving himself and the headquarters of his organization to Montreal Canada.

    It is important to note, The International Taekwondo Federation is the English translation of the Korean name actually chosen to represent Taekwondo's first International governing body.

    The word, Federation or Association are both words that can be used for the Korean term, "Hae." This fact has caused some historic confusion as to the actual name of the organization originally founded in South Korea.

    As time has progressed, however, the name, International Taekwondo Federation has become the name associated with the organization.

    But back to the main idea... Yes, it had a lot of the same stuff that makes TSD, what TSD is, and a lot of other stuff too.
    In fact there are Moo Duk Kwan Schools that use the TSD curriculum but call themselves TKD, instead of TSD, because they accepted unification.

    In 1953, Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan began to evolve. It changed its official title to the Korea Soo Bahk Do Association. By 1955 this organization had ten gymnasiums with its central headquarters near Seoul Station in the Jong Gu section of Dong Ja Dong. During this same year, the Korea Su Bahk Do Association hosted it first Sino-Korean martial art championship.

    In 1965, the various Kwans of the modern Korean martial arts were merging under the banner of Taekwondo. Kee, Hwang resisted this trend — wishing to maintain control over his organization.

    Due to this fact, two advanced students of Kee, Hwang:
    1. Im, Young Tek and
    2. Hong, Chong Soo broke away from their teacher, formed their own branch of Moo Duk Kwan, and became a part of the Korea Taekwondo Association.

    From this act two distinct systems of self defense bearing the title Moo Duk Kwan emerged.
    The first president of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan was Lee, Kang Ik, elected on 20 November 1965.

    Hong, Chong Soo was elected the third President of Taekwondo Moo Duk Kwan on 27 July 1971.

    In February of 1974 he was appointed the Vice President of Kuk Ki Won.

    Many advanced instructors of Tang Soo Do Moo Duk Kwan followed the lead of breaking away from Kee, Hwang and became part of the Taekwondo branch of Moo Duk Kwan.

    Though the two Moo Duk Kwans are relatively similar in style and structure, and most Korean Moo Duk Kwan Masters draw their lineage from Kee, Hwang, the two Moo Duk Kwans possess differing forms and a somewhat differing focus upon self defense. The Taekwondo branch of Moo Duk Kwan does, however, possesses substantially more members, approximately five hundred thousand.

    per Scott Shaw (Taekwondo History Scott Shaw
     
    Last edited: Aug 5, 2015
  6. Chrisoro

    Chrisoro Blue Belt

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    I posted an even longer article on the history and relation of Taekwondo (and Tang Soo Do) to Karate in this thread.
     
  7. reeskm

    reeskm Green Belt

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    Keep in mind, the history of Tang Soo Do is murky and still has a lot of loose ends, especially in the west.

    The main reason is that Hwang Kee is the main source for info about the Moo Duk Kwan.
    The other Kwans have mostly faded into obscurity.

    I submit that Eric Madis and Alex Gillis have made the most headway into this historical research. However, so much more needs to be done. Alex Gillis is working hard to correct some issues in his first edition of "A Killing Art". Because I am a Moo Duk Kwan TSD stylist, I personally would have liked him to carefully make this distinguishment between TSD/KSD and TKD more clear. As he is TKD, he tends to use TKD more often.

    Many people write TKD when in fact they mean TSD when discussing the martial history of korea post 1944 or so. I'm an advocate that they get it right and make sure that a school was actually using TSD, TKD, KSD etc. It's very important.

    I also tried very hard not to rehash other history books. Scott Shaw's history of TKD is quite good, but don't believe for a minute that he's got absolutely all the facts right.

    The problem is, there is an awful lot of guessing and speculation, or one sided anecdotes to what happened a long time ago, and not enough evidence. The kwans were fiercly competitive, like most martial arts groups usually are!

    It's very good to know your Kwan history of your TKD school. For instance, I recently went on a business trip where a 40 year teaching veteran of simply "WTF TKD" had just had a huge grand opening. Beautiful dojang. I politely asked if I could train while I was visiting in either a white belt dobok or my dan uniform. Since my dan uniform is the classic MDK one with midnight blue trim, with no TKD affiliation what soever, I was surprised to hear a "yes, no problem - no fee" for the lesson.

    It turns out he is a Chang Moo Kwan based TKD master, and it shows! Basically, his movements were identical to mine. He even did base form #1 (the "Gicho form" but he called it by a different name). Even his turns and blocks were identical to "MDK" orthodox style. But he wasn't MDK! a far cry from walking stances etc. It was classic Karate in appearance.

    However, the ho sin sool he showed us incoroporated classing kung fu moves. Circular blocks, tiger mouth strike to throat, spin inside and finish with a judo take down and kill move. We did a variant where you do a classic Aikido style grab arm and throw the opponent across the matt. Also is a basic jiujitsu or judo throw.

    Since Chang Moo kwan split off from the original YMCA Kwon Bop Bu of legend, his moves fit perfectly with his classic Chang Moo Kwan style. It is something I'll never forget. Kwan history matters!

    Anyway, hopefully this points people in the right direction.
     
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  8. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    If you want a good historical read.. Here are the minutes from the secretary during unification and other great Kwon stuff
     

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  9. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Gicho Won Il Bu... With squared shoulders, and straight spines, and low front stances. These are absent in some UK. TSD Schools. They teach slouching spines, overrotated shoulders when punching.
     
  10. reeskm

    reeskm Green Belt

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    There are a lot of bad karate and tang soo do schools everywhere. That's not how I do the form!

    In fact, I was taught by my instructor to use a half facing body position when I became a black belt. I look and feel at home in my friend's Shotokan dojo, no problem. He's modern JKA however, and so there are other differences. But slouching spines? No way! Back straight! We often use shinai or bo to demonstrate proper spine alignment. Should be very straight so you don't mess up your back.

    The over-rotation problem comes in modern (usually non-korean taught) TSD schools. You see, in the MDK, Hwang Kee has always promoted using your core (dan-jun or dan-tien) and your hips to provide proper power in all your techniques. There are however some problems with most modern TSD schools:
    -they (these TSD schools) think they own the exclusive right to it, or believe by bad instruction that Hwang Kee "invented" this idea
    -they think this way because of a lot of misinformation over the years, and because the MDK TSD community is often very isolated
    -the truth is simpler: almost all karate styles emphasize hip rotation for power at the advanced level. Hwang Kee tried to teach this to intermediate students and emphasized the hips on every single technique, but this idea is far older than he is.
    - some students and instructors don't understand that the hip rotation should be quick and suttle, and instead try and over rotate massively in order to do their techniques. It is not the correct way! They are doing over-rotations thinking that this makes them better somehow, because they weren't taught properly.

    Anyway, just to back up my previous claims regarding WUKO, Hwang Kee, etc, and a Wado connection:

    Black Belt Magazine September 1974 page 14-15
    Phillipines to host International Karate Event

    Excerpt:
    "According to reports, some of the most outstanding karate leaders of Japan and Korea will receive leadership awards during the tournament. To be honored are Gogen Yamaguchi, goju-ryu; Hironari Ohtsuka, wado-ryu; Kenwa Mabuni, shito-ryu; Masatoma and Nakayama of shotokan; Dr. Kwai Byeung Yu, jee do kwan; and Huang Kee of moo duk kwan." [sic.]

    Also, this document pretty much sums it up, and speaks to an era forgotten by all modern Karate, Tang Soo Do/Kong Soo Do and Taekwondo practitioners:
    http://www.fmainformative.info/FMAdigest/pdf_issues/special-editions/2007/Special-Edition_PKA.pdf

    This was Hwang Kee and Yun Kwei-Byung's big middle finger to the Taekwondo association. They literally joined the "enemy": Japan and the World Union of Karatedo Organisations. You know, I tend to side with them on this. I like Karate to be Karate, and not changed and modified into something else. But I'm kind of an old die hard like that! LOL
     
  11. reeskm

    reeskm Green Belt

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    Thanks for that TSD Texan. Yeah, I have that saved on my hard drive in like 7 different places. LOL!

    Yes, I have issues with this document. It was written by the "victors" in Korea: the KTA and the Taekwondoists. There are still a lot of very unanswered questions and issues with the translation here. For example, what exactly does this mean, really?

    "1. The doctrines and operational systems are totally wrong in the way of martial arts ideology." (p. 27)

    Operating systems?

    I think what they meant to say was that they did not agree that creating a sport association, or else being dominated by the current dictatorial government to unify, was the right thing to do from the point of view of a traditional martial artist.

    In other words, it seems like they felt that they were selling out and being forced to unify, and this was somehow against the basic principles of Budo (Jp.) or Mudo (Kr.)
    Maybe the idea that all martial artists should have the freedom to explore, create and develop new ideas and techniques as they see fit? To run their schools as they see fit? Well, we will never know.

    I don't trust for a second the words of Chong Soo Hong when he "consulted" Hwang Kee over several days. I think what really happened between those two men is not said in this paper. I think Chong Soo Hong felt that support President Park's regime and directive to unify was a better way. Hwang Kee chose the hard way: the way of torture, persecution and chose to send his martial art elsewhere.
     
  12. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    Agreed on all points... But the document confirms that us MDK and JDK folks were not the powers that be... I.E. General Choice and Co.

    Also, the document underscores the reality of Korean Yakuza-like gangsters who purchased Dan ranks as cover for their affairs like strongarming.

    My master's master Floyd Guidry spent almost a decade learning in Korea under JC Shin... But Floyd's Korean wife gave him hell for teaching "gangster fighting". She was ashamed that he would not take a more noble and upright profession. She only knew the MDK logo as a gangster sign where she was from.

    To please her, he became a sheriff deputy, truck driver and real estate guy.

    Eventually He dumped her for an american gal.

    She should learned to stand by her man.

    As for stances, for sparring I take a forward stance, and rotate my feet from 12' oh clock to about between 2 and 3 oh clock. Its not a side stance exactly... But different.

    And I can fire off like my forms very quickly, or transition to other footwork.
     
    Last edited: Aug 11, 2015
  13. TSDTexan

    TSDTexan Master Black Belt

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    General Choice and Co. Should have been General Choi and Co. Autocorrect sucks.
     
  14. Old Judoka

    Old Judoka Yellow Belt

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    This was a comprehensive fascinating history lesson. Previous I only understood about 10 percent (if that) of the unification movement. Great job!
     
  15. SahBumNimRush

    SahBumNimRush Master of Arts

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    Just thought I would throw in my .02. My lineage comes from the outliers of MDK TKD that teaches TSD. I'm really uncertain as to how that all shakes out.

    We use the term TKD, but we train the classic hyungs (kicho, pyung ahn, bassai, naihanchi, chinto, kang song kun, etc.) and daeryuns (1 step, 3 step, kneeling, free, etc). I know that my KJN followed the TKD side of the MDK, and was affiliated with the KTA. He is very quite about that history, and I have gotten the impression over the years that it was a subject that was inappropriate to inquire about. He does not talk about his SBN (the only thing that I know is that his name was KIM). My KJN is listed on the MDK family tree in Kang Uk Lee's book, but I have very little information about my history beyond my own KJN.
     

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