Training half of martial arts bugs me.

dvcochran said:
Listing a couple of credible sources in no way quantifies all sources. This competition thing has blinded you to the reality that there are multiple ways to become conversant and test your skills.
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And what would those multiple ways be?
 
Steve said:
You mention music. My kids have all done the elementary school band/orchestra thing, as literally thousands and thousands of kids do in America. Some kids have a lot of aptitude. Some kids have zero aptitude. Funny... after a year, they all get better and they all play music by the end of the year. How can we tell? Well, it's easy. Just like how you can tell that kids are getting better at playing football or soccer.
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This is an interesting analogy. Because literally everyone I've ever trained with (or taught) has gotten better at punching and throwing if they were around a school year later. And, like with the music, it's pretty easy to see.
 
drop bear said:
Then those self defense schools are lying.

(Actually dovocran said that he may not produce any results on this thread when he does a short course.)
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So, now a school not making a claim is lying?

As to the short course, those of you upset with the statement that they don't produce long-term skills and that someone is clear about that to the attendees......you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. I think we could all agree that a few hours isn't enough to produce long-term repeatable applicable skills with beginners in MA. But once someone adds "self-defense" to the comment, suddenly "AHA! SEE! YOU CAN'T PRODUCE RESULTS!!!"
 
drop bear said:
Yeah so long as enough people are convinced by the marketing to support the service then it justifies the method.

Do you guys have Danos direct over there?
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What marketing are you thinking convinces them? Most just walk in without having run into any marketing. Literally most folks have apparently not even been to the website, judging by their questions. Folks come in and watch classes, then decide to join.

Not at all familiar with Danos direct. A quick search suggests maybe you're talking about Danoz direct, which I'd never heard of before. If you're supposing there's some hype marketing going on, that's an interesting claim.
 
drop bear said:
If I enter competitions with no fighting skill I will get to a level where I get beaten up. And we can put a gauge on my fighting skill. If I train a bunch of guys and they enter competitions they can put a gauge on my training skills.

And we can see at a glance if a school is going to produce a fighting skill or not and to what degree.

If I learn self defense as a fighting skill there no point at which my level of fighting skill matters. There is no point which the instructor level of fighting skill matters and there is no point which anybody in that rooms fighting skill matters.

Because results don't matter.

And results don't matter because there is some sort of difference in training a person for self defense or competition. But because self defense instructors conceal their ability and conceal the ability of their students.

And they do this by saying things like "we spar" and then just sort of wait for people to just accept that.

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You're making no sense. In the past you've argued (rather vehemently) that sport fighting skills aren't materially different from the fighting skills needed for self-defense. Now you're trying to describe self-defense as a fighting skill, which is just linguistically screwy.

Fighting skills are fighting skills, for the most part. The context can dictate what's useful (nobody trains punches for a Judo or MAGA competition), but the skills are much the same where the context is similar (BJJ competition skills translate reasonably well to SD scenarios that involve ground grappling, for instance).

"Self-defense" isn't a fighting skill. It's a way of applying that fighting skill.
 
drop bear said:
Yeah. Self defense training isn't very good but you will probably never really need it is kind of a terrible argument for self defense training.

It isn't a bad argument for not bothering to train at all.

But unfortunately I know about 10 guys in my area who either are pro fighters or at about the standard of one, because I train with them. So I am not sure how much that argument really holds water.

But regardless of that if your desire to do a standard of martial arts that isn't very good. At least you should know it isn't good. And it isn't cool for martial arts to disguise that fact from you.

And yes we had this discussion before.
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If a tool works for its purpose, then it's good for that. It doesn't have to be the best at a more generalized context to suit the purpose. I keep a tack hammer over my workbench, because most of the hammering I do there is with small nails and brads. It would suck badly at driving 10-penny glue nails, but that's irrelevant, since that's not what it's there for. It's quite a good little hammer for its purpose.

If someone wants to be able to beat high-level fighters (even high-level amateurs) they need to train specifically for that (and specifically for that context, because that's the level where context training starts to be essential, IMO). But it's most folks aren't interested or concerned with that level.
 
drop bear said:
And what would those multiple ways be?
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I am tired of hashing this to death. We train in different ways that have a lot of overlapping methods and practices. It is really that simple. You are convinced if it is not labeled MMA then is crap and I cannot change that.
Because a match does not end in a choke-out or submission does not automatically make it less of a match. I have the broken bones to prove that.
Giving this some thought, there is More violence in classic striking MA's. I have not researched this but there has to be a good percentage of knockouts vs. submissions in pro fighting. Surely you can agree that at least that part of what you do is Directly related to various other MA's? If not then you are truly blind to the reality of what you do and are just living on the hype of your environment. That is on you.
 
drop bear said:
I said it.

I will say it again if you like.
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Brother, you need to get a life. There is a Lot more out there than what you watch on Youtube.

I do not expect you to know my life but me and my wife combined have 5 businesses going at the same time. One (two really) are directly related to MA's. While MA's is still a part of my life, the full contact competition ship sailed a while ago. Trust me, if you do this long enough, you will find ways to test your method that do not require broken bones or being knocked. I have been submitted enough to know it is not nearly as painful or effective.
Or you will simply fade away like so many full on competitors do.
IF however what you do on a daily basis is not at That level, well then I Will call what you are doing crap. Your worlds method of 'proof' is crap and totally unrealistic. I will not try to get into what constitutes a 'tap' or 'tap out' with you.

I can tell you are an intelligent person by your posts. But you are also blinded by your convictions. We have all been there and for the most part it is a good thing; as long as at some point we can step back and be objective. Most assuredly, as with all things, something else will come along and change the emphasis and popularity of what you do.
When the shine goes away I hope your passion does not.

Just enjoy what you do and don't worry about what everyone else does. The 'me Hulk' chest bump has gotten really old. Everyone knows your position.
 
gpseymour said:
This is an interesting analogy. Because literally everyone I've ever trained with (or taught) has gotten better at punching and throwing if they were around a school year later. And, like with the music, it's pretty easy to see.
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It is amazing how differently people can see the same thing. It seems we all agree you have to crawl before you walk in every learned skill. And barring any physical/mental limitations Everyone gets better over time.
But that logic immediately gets skewed by some when you change the label to martial arts or self defense. Just does not make sense to me.
 
gpseymour said:
This is an interesting analogy. Because literally everyone I've ever trained with (or taught) has gotten better at punching and throwing if they were around a school year later. And, like with the music, it's pretty easy to see.
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sure. Like folks who do tae bo or cardio kickboxing. The real question is, do they self defense better?
 
Steve said:
sure. Like folks who do tae bo or cardio kickboxing. The real question is, do they self defense better?
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well people who do cardio are likely to be better at defending themselves than those who dont, so yes a definite self defence strategy to kick the hell out of a heavy bag

i see youve gone back to ignoring my question again
 
dvcochran said:
It is amazing how differently people can see the same thing. It seems we all agree you have to crawl before you walk in every learned skill. And barring any physical/mental limitations Everyone gets better over time.
But that logic immediately gets skewed by some when you change the label to martial arts or self defense. Just does not make sense to me.
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Where we disagree is in who is qualified to teach. Ie the idea of experience by osmosis.

We also disagree that self defense training is actually useful, as commonly taught. I.e., it's like drinking Quicksilver serum thinking it will cure your coronavirus. The claims are unsubstantiated.

Like that darn vaginal egg they sold on goop. There might be a million great reasons to stick an egg shaped piece of quartz in your vagina. The issue isn't the egg (unless it's actually dangerous). The issue is in the claims.

Generally, overstated claims are benign. A knife that claims to be the last one you'll ever buy. Or A diet that claims you'll lose 30 lbs in the first week. But sometimes, people get hurt. Someone deluded into thinking he can fight when he can't is benign until he needs to fight. Then it matters. It's not the activity, it's the exaggerated claims
 
jobo said:
well people who do cardio are likely to be better at defending themselves than those who dont, so yes a definite self defence strategy to kick the hell out of a heavy bag

i see youve gone back to ignoring my question again
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I agree with that. I said earlier that CrossFit is probably more effective for self defense than some self defense oriented arts.
 
Steve said:
I agree with that. I said earlier that CrossFit is probably more effective for self defense than some self defense oriented arts.
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well thats not comparing apples and apples to be honest, ma with out a reasonable degree of fitness is only any real good if your attacked by someone less fit than you are

if you are serious about self defence you need to devote some effort to physical conditioning, thats not a short fall in any particular training school, that a failure of the individual to meet the other half of the equation

nb cross fit also do self defence training and there are some seriously strong young women there that i wouldn't mess with
 
jobo said:
well thats not comparing apples and apples to be honest, ma with out a reasonable degree of fitness is only any real good if your attacked by someone less fit than you are

if you are serious about self defence you need to devote some effort to physical conditioning, thats not a short fall in any particular training school, that a failure of the individual to meet the other half of the equation

nb cross fit also do self defence training and there are some seriously strong young women there that i wouldn't mess with
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I disagree.
 
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