Tracy's Instruction Style

Discussion in 'Tracy's Kenpo' started by Spartan, Sep 27, 2007.

  1. redfang

    redfang Purple Belt

    Joined:
    May 22, 2003
    Messages:
    324
    Likes Received:
    7
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    NC
    When I was in Cleveland, I studied Kenpo at a Tracy studio for a number of years. The area has maybe 8 or so Tracy schools, all feature private lessons. All of the schools are independently operated. Where I trained, I paid $25 a week for one private lesson (that both me and my wife went to.) and then as many groups as we wanted, usually made it to about three. The instructor charged $25 when I started with him in 2000, and still charged $25 when I moved in 2005. No contracts were involved, the instruction was good. Avg time to 1st black seemed to be 4-5 years.
     
  2. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Shreveport, LA
    That is pretty standard.
     
  3. Spartan

    Spartan Green Belt

    Joined:
    Dec 20, 2006
    Messages:
    121
    Likes Received:
    0
    Trophy Points:
    16
    Overall, how do you guys feel about contracts when it comes to running your schools? Some of the Tracy's around my town use them, some don't.
     
  4. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Shreveport, LA
    I've done it both ways. There was no difference.
     
  5. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    That you seem to believe that a cheap price is more important than anything else?

    I'm just curious of what they'd have to teach you so you would know that price is very reasonable, and in fact, very valuable?

    Sort of like paying $40 bucks for one oz bars of gold?

    On the other hand, if someone is after "cheap" I just tell them to go to... (I name the cheapest place in town)...

    They are happy and I am happy.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    www.realspeedhitting.com
    www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com
     
  6. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Right on.

    Training mixtures are necessary to maximize the effect of the privates.

    Thank you.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    www.realspeedhitting.com
    www.mentaltrainingsecrets.com
     
    • Like Like x 1
  7. donald

    donald Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Lake County,Ohio
    Spartan,
    Not a whole lot because I was training at a studio that taught the Tracy system from an EPAK perspective. The owner/operator(Mr.Bill DiCarlo) of the studio was responsible for bringing Mr.Parker Sr., and some of his black(Mr.Wedlake,Mr.Palanzo)belts into Cleveland, Ohio for seminars, etc.. As a matter of fact when I went looking for another Tracy Studio to train at. I discovered that the kata, and tek applications that I had learned were just different enough in some aspects as to make my studio transition kinda confusing.Thanks for the interest.
    1stJohn1:9
     
  8. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Dave,
    The above comment is referencing 1 private a week, and the rest of the groups free.

    You can really help your students by offering 2 privates a week, or even 3 privates a week, and still give the groups free.

    I personally have everyone on my schedule on for either 2 or 3 privates per week, No exceptions.

    In my entire student body I have only 2 people taking 1 private session a week.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. If you want more on this David and the "reasons why", email me privately for the details.
     
  9. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Shreveport, LA
    I have always offered this as an option, and have probably 40% of my students doing this.
     
  10. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Good for you Dave.

    I've never seen others do it. So your comments about you doing it did surprise me.

    Most instructors get locked into one tactic and fear treading in new territory.

    You should easily get 90% of your adults into 2 privates a week.

    About 60% of the kids will take 2 privates a week, depending on how you frame the offer.

    Just tell the truth, and give the benifits that the parents can appreciate.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  11. donald

    donald Black Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2002
    Messages:
    565
    Likes Received:
    3
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Location:
    Lake County,Ohio
    Dr.La Tourrette/KenpoDave

    With so many getting away from regularly scheduled privates why do you continue, and even add more? Do you charge more for the privates on a contract? I truly missed having mine when we dropped them, and after awhile I adjusted, but they sure were nice. You obviously have no problem with personnel. I think that was one of the main factors as to why my instructor dropped them from the regular students schedule. Gotta go...

    Salute,
    1stJohn1:9
     
  12. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Shreveport, LA
    Well, for myself, I continue because it is much more beneficial to my students, and because it allows me to schedule lessons by appointment. I like the personal touch.

    No, I do not charge more for privates. Extra privates can be bought at a discounted rate.
     
  13. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    A couple of reasons.

    First I (and I assume Dave) knows how to teach a good private session where the student really feels they are getting their value desired.

    Second, Many prefer privates and would rather pay for the extra attention to details that privates give them over groups...whether it's because of a health problem or because of a confidence problem, or because they just want all the attention.

    Third, with the massive amounts of information we have to teach, the private lessons really do aid in the assimilation of those large amounts of skills in a way that groups cannot do in the same amount of time (we still offer gps and sparring classes).

    Fourth, I do NOT discount any private lessons. The only asset we have is to teach the intangible of Kenpo Karate is time. There is only so much time in a day.

    Fifth, I love teaching higher level concepts, and the continual drilling and feedback being given to their experiences until they get it. I love watching that "light go on" in their eyes.

    Most who teach privates feel that way.

    Those who don't teach privates usually don't feel the same way about teaching, or they not been introduced to the teachings of private in a way that motivates them to do so.

    We allow no clients with no contracts (another topic but was brought up in your questions).

    Hope this helps.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  14. John Bishop

    John Bishop Master Black Belt

    • Advisor
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2002
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Calif.
    Just one question here. Why the use of the term "client" instead of student? Wouldn't that make you a salesman?
    I understand that you are in the martial arts "business", but even high price ivy league schools use the term "student" instead of "clients".
     
  15. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Shreveport, LA
    In my job outside of kenpo, the term client is important in the sense that people have come to our company, typically from our reputation, and trusted us to provide them with whatever service they are requesting. In response, we take very seriously, the trust and well being of our client above all others. Many of our clients return to us, and many become, in essence, business associates who recommend our services, and in turn, receive the same from us.

    But it starts with our commitment to provide the highest quality service to our client.

    In a karate studio, to me, it is much the same way. The person who walks through the door deserves my best because he is my client. Hopefully, he will become my student, then colleague, and so on.

    But, the word client brings a connotation of professionalism to an industry filled with, unfortunately, amateurs with a black belt and some rented space.

    Also, and I can't speak for Doc here, but in my school, I have short term clients that come by to learn very specific things. So, I differentiate between clients and students based on the depth of the relationship, but certainly not in the depth of service provided.

    It is, to me, much like using the term "professor" instead of instructor.
     
  16. John Bishop

    John Bishop Master Black Belt

    • Advisor
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2002
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Calif.
    So is this term "clients" part of the Tracy marketing vocabulary, or is it primarily used by Dr. LT? If it's a term mostly used by the Dr., then I'm still interested in his reasons for using the term.
     
  17. KenpoDave

    KenpoDave 2nd Black Belt

    Joined:
    May 20, 2002
    Messages:
    871
    Likes Received:
    29
    Trophy Points:
    43
    Location:
    Shreveport, LA
    I have used the term for a few years mainly because of business seminar that I attended conducted by Al Tracy. The term was brought up by one of the seminar attendees, and he made some good points. However, I don't think that the term client is part of the Tracy's vocabulary in any official sense.

    Dr. LT is one of the few that I have heard use it in reference to students.
     
  18. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    Hi John,
    I've already answered this thread to death on kenpotalk.
    And I do use the word client, student, and a few others, depending on the context.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. we are all in sales whether we admit it or not. Some call it teaching. Others call it dating. Others call it good. Others call it bad. I just suggest people learn how to do it right. (NOTE: I am NOT being rude, but expressing my cool sense of humor)
     
  19. Dr John M La Tourrette

    Dr John M La Tourrette Green Belt

    Joined:
    Jan 24, 2007
    Messages:
    152
    Likes Received:
    9
    Trophy Points:
    18
    First off, I think that your question is valid for you but means not much to me, and some would EVEN CALL IT RUDE, because of the negative inference and presuppositions you have for "salesman".

    And I am NOT being rude, nor am I calling what you said "rude", but being honest. There is a vast difference.

    Client is defined as "customer" by Webster's. So our Kenpo students are also our clients.

    All professional martial studios (hopefully) use good sales tactics of communication so that they can give their customers better service.
    A student is someone who engages in a course of study, esp, in an educational institution.

    So I've used professional teaching methods, professional client criteria, and professional sales tatics for 37 years and I am very glad that I have.

    Hopefully everyone else does also, regardless of which nominalization they use.

    But if they don't, that is okay. They can call them students. They can NOT use sales tactics because they dislike the term and all their unconscious associations to that term.

    And I know that some people find the use of the term client offensive. Cool. Good. And I can live with that. I do not consider that rude of them, but them expressing their own opinions, no matter if my concepts are different than theirs.

    I still have clients, students and I use sales tactics no matter what they feel. Hopefully that is okay?

    I am NOT here to have you defend what you use in your school with your clients. What ever you do with your clients/students/people/whatever is cool with me.

    It's sort of like that post with Dennis C. over the word 'waza'.

    He doesn't use that word. Cool.

    I do, and I will continue using it. Cool.

    Many in Kenpo do not use the word "Dan". Cool. I do and I will continue using it because I like and I appreciate it.

    Just as I will continue using words like "sales", "contracts", "Student enrollment agreements", clients, students...

    ...I also make no difference in the words I use with women versus the words I use with men.

    I also make ALL women who attend classes (is that word allowed) wear a nard guard, even though they do not have nards.

    Isn't it cool that in your school/studio/dojo/dojang/kwon/ etc, you can do whatever you want?

    Huggy feely friendly warm and smiley
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
     
  20. John Bishop

    John Bishop Master Black Belt

    • Advisor
    • Martial Talk Alumni
    Joined:
    Mar 21, 2002
    Messages:
    1,157
    Likes Received:
    68
    Trophy Points:
    73
    Location:
    Southern Calif.
    John, you seem to offend pretty easy. Reading some of the comments and questions that are addressed to you on this and other forums, I can see why you get defensive quite easily.
    But as far as I can remember, this is the only question I have ever asked you on this or any other forum. I can assure you that it would be wrong to presume that the title "salesman" is something I view as derogatory. All of us are consumers, and deal with sales people everyday. Most of these dealings are good experiences, and a few are not so good.
    Now if I referred to someone as a "used car salesman", or "snake oil salesman" you would be correct in presuming I meant it in a derogatory manner.
     

Share This Page