Toolbox concept

Discussion in 'General Martial Arts Talk' started by Kung Fu Wang, Jun 9, 2020.

  1. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    your area sound rougher than mine, ok i stand corrected, double side wards elbows are essential if you have annoyed Iranian wrestlers
     
  2. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    To me, those are all tactics. Your strategy is what you want to accomplish overall. IMO this is why grapplers tend to be more successful. They understand what they are trying to accomplish and do it. For example, a grappler's strategy in most cases is: Safely close the distance, take the opponent to the ground, obtain dominate position and submit. Within those three things are when your tactics come in to play of HOW to safely close the distance with each type of opponent, HOW are you going to take them to the ground, etc. When you are a striker, what is your overall goal with your strikes? Just keep hitting until he stops? Are you striking to dominate or are you striking to escape the situation safely?

    Most people don't have a strategy when it comes to self-defense, so they stay at the "tactic and technique" level of a confrontation. For example, your strategy is different if it is your drunken friend and you don't want to hurt him, it is different if you have someone with you that you need to protect. How do certain environments effect your tools? For example, in a parking lot between two cars where there isn't much room to move around versus a mostly empty parking lot.
     
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  3. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    In a way it can.

    Our art teaches three categories that this would fall under:
    Sweeping-sweeping the opponent's leg(s) to take them down
    Throwing-projects the opponent away from you
    Dumping-places the opponent right down where they were previously standing (throws and dumps have many similarities the difference is where the opponent ends up)

    Each of those categories are going to have concepts that are universal to them, such as, off balancing the opponent and putting their center of gravity outside of their base, and how to apply the level to assist with their fall and let gravity do its work. That's it. All of those throws are based on those two ideas. THEN you get into the details of which direction you are unbalancing the opponent in and how you are taking advantage of their attempt to regain their balance, which is where all the different throws come in at (hand, hip, leg or sacrifice that is the "steering wheel" of the throw).
     
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  4. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    As with all throws, trips/sweeps they require an unbalance of the opponent and then leveraging that unbalance to assist gravity in letting them fall.
     
  5. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    You are looking at the details, not the principles which are all the same to discover the different ways.

    All joint locking has the same principles: Isolate the joint, take the slack/movement out of the joint, make it go in a direction or move in a way it wasn't meant to go. You can figure out everything from just those three principles when playing around.
     
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  6. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    well no they dont, some throws just require the strength to pick your opponent up and throw them absolutely no unbalancing required, once you have some one off the ground their balance becomes irreverent
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  7. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    This, IMO, is where some of the situational drills can be useful, whether training for self-defense or for competition. I remember watching @Tony Dismukes running a situational drill when I was visiting with him. He had the BJJ students paired up, and one guy's goal was to stand up, while the other guy's goal was to submit the first guy. Given that, each partner had a specific objective, which sets up their strategy. The same can be done with some self-defense scenarios.
     
  8. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    Those are rarely points of focus, since they require the opponent be both significantly less skilled and significantly less strong.
     
  9. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    picking someone up doesn't in anyway required the opponent to be less strong, only requiring that you are strong enough to lift their weight, and as for skill, its only requires that you do it before they do it( or something else) to you, there is nothing they can do to stop it happening other than keep out of range, and people attacking you are generally in range
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  10. punisher73

    punisher73 Senior Master

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    Completely wrong. Even a bodyslam as you are describing requires shifting of balance and leverage to be able to accomplish it.
     
  11. gpseymour

    gpseymour MT Moderator Staff Member

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    If you're going to depend solely upon your strength for the throw, you pretty much need them to not be able to counter with their own strength. Anything beyond that is technique. And most strength-only moves have simple counters.
     
  12. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    once their feet are off the floor and their in motion there is little that can be done to counter, they are hitting the floor

    i did this many years ago, to my jujitsu instructor who was far to skilled for me to get a hip throw on, so i just picked him up and slammed him into the floor, he really really wasn't pleased either about the reality or the force with which he hit the floor,

    strength of course is a technique( a learnt skill) if you insist on over analysing thing and anyway picking people up and smashing them is largely a rugby technique, well it was in the old days, they stopped because of neck injuries
     
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  13. Flying Crane

    Flying Crane Sr. Grandmaster

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    This is an interesting point and merits further comment.

    I think that some people are able to be effective on a level that they are satisfied with, by relying on raw strength and athleticism. Because they do have success, it is easy for them to believe that their skill must be high. I think these people have a hard time considering the possibility that they might be missing something and that there could be a more efficient way to do something. They could be more successful and more effective, with less exertion. And that success can last well into old age, after the strength and athleticism has faded.
     
  14. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    strength is one of the last attributes to diminish through age as long as you keep using it, certainly speed reactions and co ordination go first
     
  15. Monkey Turned Wolf

    Monkey Turned Wolf MT Moderator Staff Member

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    So here's an idea. I consider various techniques to be tools. If I am good at tools that relate to each other, that's good. So if I'm good at shooting in, clinching, and throwing, that's good. If I'm good at evading, jabbing, and throwing hook punches, that's good. If I'm good at throwing from a clinch, but not good at shooting in or clinching, that's not all that good, since I won't get the chance to use that tool all that often.

    The tools you do have need to go together in someway. And when you find gaps in your method, that's when you develop other tools that fill in those gaps.
     
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  16. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    You are talking about very high level and very abstract.

    The following principles have little meaning to me.

    - A punch/kick is to move your fist/foot from one point to another point.
    - A lock is to move your opponent's joint to the direction that can hurt him.
    - A throw is to take your opponent's balance off.
    - The most important principle of MA is to against your opponent's well.
    - ...

    I prefer to call those "common sense" instead.
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  17. jobo

    jobo Grandmaster

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    thos is were the tool metophor gets silly. a tool box woth onlu three tools in it is of very limited use, unless you dping something that only needs three or two or one tool, im which case its mote than ample, walking about with a big right hand, is more than ample for the majproty of situations, or good in clinch, that ccovers a lot of bases as well, have both and your in good shape.

    o talk as some one who really does own every concievable tool, 99% of which are still in their wrapper, soonet or later im going to need an argon welder, i just know it
     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  18. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Such as

    - firemen's carry,
    - embracing,
    - ...

    [​IMG]
     
  19. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    The embracing throw can be used to counter all the body contact throws (your back touch on your opponent's chest).

    This old man is my teacher's young brother. He was 73 in that clip. I weight 185 lb back then. He could still pick me up. The key is the "belly bouncing" skill that require a lot of training. It's not used the arms strength.



    To train the embracing throw is not to develop strong arms muscle, but to develop "belly bouncing" skill.

     
    Last edited: Jun 12, 2020
  20. Kung Fu Wang

    Kung Fu Wang Grandmaster

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    Agree! The embracing is the most powerful throw on earth. When your feet are off the ground, you are helpless.123
     

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